Importing Foreign-trained nurses - page 2
Importing Foreign-trained Nurses Comparison of Pending Legislation on Nursing Immigration Issues 11/05/01 "The American Nurses Association (ANA) has posted a chart which compares two bills... Read More
Nov 13, '01Shandi?
Your mother doesn't appear to have benefited from an exclusionary taxpayer-sponsored-bill.
specificaly I'm commenting about something called "reverse discrimination"
Let me give you an example........................In my class of about 40 students there's a person who comes to class late, and leaves early.takes tests whenever she feels like it(usually after the other students have thiers graded and handed back), takes phone calls on her cellphone.......during class! . The "tests" that she takes are administered in an unsupervised study hall, in other words, what you would call "open book".
Do you know why this person can get away with this obscene behavior, and get an "A" while doing it? Because to call someone a racist is sooooo easy. It is also the most damaging "guilty until proven innocent" thing you can say about anyone or any institution.
You called me a racist because I don't want to PAY for someone to come from another country and fill up the job market, when people like your mother WORKED thier way into the job market. YOU would be a racist then, wouldn't you? You are judging the people that made your mother qualify based on thier RACE aren't you? It doesn't sound like you based it on some standards or laws.
Before you start banging away on your "R" key let me give you an exercise:
Imagine that the authorities in the country you were applying for citizenship were the same race, just a different country with a specific set of laws. No action or sanctions taken by them could be seen as racism, could they? Then on that basis you cannot judge intent without judging race only. That would make your statements......................What then.
I have no further questions Your Honor.
The witness my step down.
Nov 13, '01Shandi -
First point, I was not insinuating that because you're not a nurse, you don't "see things." However, you don't see things as a nurse does. And you are posting to a NURSING forum, of which the focus has been what is good for NURSING in the United States.
I disagreed with you that the post criticized nurses from other countries and put minorities "in the same boat." Why do you assume that people from other countries are necessarily minorities, or that he assumes they are? The point I got from the post was this: As long as someone is available and willing to step in and fill in whenever a nurse makes a stand for better pay, better working conditions -- perhaps even accepting less pay and poorer conditions -- then the people in charge will not be required to address the problems at all.
It seems like your anger about something other than this thread is making it difficult for you to follow it. It seems like you're just venting, not actually responding to posts. Also the fact that you seemed to feel the need to attack me personally saying, "If you sometimes looked around at 'world' news," accusing me of being uniformed makes it seem like you've merely found a place to "Flame" rather than having a point to make.
Every country has requirements for testing for professionals trained in other countries. There's no alternative to that. Take a deep breath, take a nice drink of cool water, look at a sunset, do something to make yourself feel better because this kind of posting isn't going to do it for you.
Nov 13, '01First of all to Shandi I say: You need to reread Peeps first post. He was explaining the legislation, and its language, that is before the governing bodies. He was not, as I read it, being racist. The racists in the crowd may be whomever wrote the bill; gee, would that be a surpise??
Secondly, to Peeps I say: Bravo, and Thank you for the grasp you have of the "legaleze" (sp?) the gov puts in front of us.
There are two sides to everything--we have to hang together and reach that middle ground to make our work environment and our pt's environment better.
Nov 13, '01Nursedennie,Rjlrn95,
Thank you for reading my post so thoughtfuly.
Yes, you have both grapsed the thoughts that I was sharing.
I think a public retraction is in order.
Now, let's all get on with this post. The subject has merit and it was a good idea for a post, so lets support it if you have any more input.
I will be happy to deal with any flamers personaly. We shouldn't be intimidated to express our views...................that's what this forum is for!!!
Nov 13, '01I worked with forgein nurses. they kept wages down. took all did the overtime, did not care to improve nursing in my state. and set nursing back 2o years with how they kissed &@@ to the doc's. they accecpt horrible working conditions. then they go home with the money they made and open up a business. so... im doing policy paper for Leadership and would appreciate any opinions. or sources..
Nov 14, '01tchachakis, the problem is a lack of organisation among nurses. I know in the States the hospital a mile away might be completely different from yours so they get away with hiring foreign nurses and keeping pay low. We are in a provincial union here so our wages are the same and set by our contract. A nurse can not be paid less than another nurse of the same experience level regardless of whether she is foreign or not.
Nov 14, '01Hi! I am also a Filipina Nurse and had been recruited by a hospital in california. It's true that we are being offered free exams (CGFSN,NCLEX,TSE & TOEFL) plus housing for the first three months.
However, the present nursing trend in our country has already changed compared to the 1980's and 1990's. Enrollment in the nursing school has not increased tremendously. I guess for the reason that the younger generation would like to learn and work more on the I.T. side.
P.S. Even the hospitals here are having rapid turn overs of nurses because of so many reasons.
Nov 14, '01I was duly told that I have no business being on this forum, maybe that's true, Mr McArthurs reply expects me to give a public retraction. I think you will have to wait. It's really great that everybody else read it differently, I guess I read it from a different standpoint, I stand by it , too, no amount of bashing me and telling me what I don't know as a nurse will sway me. Venting, a little maybe, everybody interprets things in their own way. What was said smelled of bias. However, when I put forward the immensely racist experiences my mother, WHO IS A NURSE!!!, went through, that's just water under the bridge right? Of course, because she was foriegn, she had no say, nothing was given to her for free, in fact things were made as difficult as possible. But, never mind that, my point in bringing up my mother, who is a nurse and has been for a long, long long time, is that I think that in all this hoopla of the government's decisions things have to worked out fairly. The foreign nurses have no-one to complain to, have no-one to turn to because people say "Go back to your on country". Well, like the solution I gave before, close the borders and be done with it, and then the nurses here will get all they need. Sorry, no public retraction from me, try someone else.
Nov 14, '01Weelllllllll, Mom says.............just let them be. She told me she's gotten over what she endured here, and since she never has to come back, why fret? I was going to follow in my mother's footsteps in becoming a nurse when I got out of high school (laugh). Of course I chose something else! Anyway to each his own, I really hope the nurses get what they're fighting for, just as everyone else at a job they don't like has to fight for fairness, I have one almighty huge problem with the bias (is that better than saying racist?) in this country. But anyway no matter what color you are you can still be a bigot, racist etc. just because you are of the same color as someone doesn't mean that you're excluded, that's how I understood it anyway. And if you're not any of those things, proudly proclaim it and be done with it. So let it wash away in the dirty bathwater and get on with fighting the good fight. So don't be so angry that I voiced my opinions, that I chose to address a part of someone reply and not the whole daggone thing, don't be mad that I dared come on this forum and post something when I am not a nurse. By the way I work at a publishing company that may not be totally nurse oriented but is connected, we deal with the nurses and administrators who work with the elderly, the administrators and carers of those in need of mental health and other medical related issues. Nurses who care for the elderly probably get a just as bad a deal as those in the hospital or practice setting, so even though I am not a nurse, everyday I get to hear both sides of the story and make my own decisions and opinions.
Nov 14, '01Of course, sir, it is not right and funnels money into areas that one can say do not deal with the interests of the host country. It goes on however, in a variety of cloaked forms and the swell is getting bigger against it. It's just that the American public would need to be educated on the fact and fiction. Did I pass the test?
Nov 14, '01I'm curious over the ammount of postings from"SHANDI" and the content. I am wondering your age and occupation? Why is your mom in the UK, and you're here in Cleveland?This is not a particularly racist city. Since the attack on the US the common bond between all of us as AMERICANS has superceeded any prior needs for antiquated squabling over racism.The problems we are facing as a nation are grave.The problems we are facing as nurses are also grave.I have been a nurse for sometime now.Most of the difficulties faced in the workplace came from adminstration and their policies, not from fellow workers.There are always a few who would not be my choice for "FRIENDS" however this did not preclude me from a working relationship.Perhaps you could benefit by expanding your point of reference to you own instead of basing all thought processing on your interpretation of stories your Mom told you.If you are so against "NURSES" and the people of this country why are you spending so much valuable time posting and reading in our Forum?
Nov 14, '01Brad, first off let me say that on a certain level I agree with your sentiment in that the hospitals and the administration are using the importation of foreign nurses as a band-aid solution to the nursing shortage rather than deal with what has caused the current crisis. I also agree that this must be stopped or else we will find that our current situation will continue to deteriorate.
I must address the tangent you went off on in regards to the poor working here in the States.
Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
I think the reason the corporations running the hospitals want to recruit foreing nurses is for the same reasons they want to see going to the poor here in the U.S. Both sectors are working class poor and will accept dirt wages as manna from heaven. They will think that dangerouse patient loads are normal. No lunch or bathroom....ok.
They will be right behind you waiting for you to refuse an assingment.
Waiting for you to refuse crappy wages.
Waiting for you to leave a job because of abuse.
waiting for you to screw up and give the administration the slightest excuse to hire someone at less pay that they can push around.
I've lived in both Arizona and Texas. Look around next time you go through there. It's a specimen of what is coming for nurses if you don't act.
The money for education is going to the hispanics and native americans. They have quotas that can't be filled fast enough. Free money, without expectation of performance it turns out, is pretty easy to give away.
That's a pretty harsh generalization, don't you think? I too have lived in Texas. My first job was in a county hospital in which 90% of the staff was Hispanic. Coincidentally, my nurse manager was Filipina who was recruited to this country. There was no lowering of standards in regards to either pay or work conditions. Neither was the standard of care lower.
Those minorities(not for long) are filling jobs with that education, at lower wages, with poorer working conditions, because that's what they're gonna put up with. When they get put in a position of hiring they naturally hire other minorities and they use the quotas that got them hired as an excuse for qualifying them as the best candidate.
The employers could not be more pleased. They are filling the positions with eager punctual employees. That will work for table scraps. They won't ***** about not getting health insurance. They never heard of not accepting a work assingment. They TRY to get overtime.
Again, gross generalizations. What evidence are you basing this on?
It all starts very quietly as a bill with no SPECICFIC language. Just some money to buy some votes. The lawmakers on capitol hill give the power to the local governments to disburse funds so the local guys can see where they need to shore up support for they're party. They talk in beautiful syntax of the money for education going to all who want it. A virtual cornucopia of wealth to give "nursing" a shot in the arm. That gets the bill passed. Then they look for a specific group to throw it at. African-americans are already voting largely Democratic anyway and besides they have thier OWN exclusionaryprograms and grants that even people that are'nt from this country can't get.
I'm not sure where that shot at African-Americans came from, but it seems irrevelant. Exclusionary scholarship programs? Are you really suggesting that AA's have some type of leg up in that department?In the meantime you have an influx of immigration. Future votes that need a cause. You have the poor, that need a reason to vote, and all You have left is a quota of nurses to set. No one can speak out against it. You can't speak out against poor people or immigrants(they were at one time the foundation of the industrial revolution) They all scrape by with a "C" cause they're scared **itless of the language barrier. and Badda -Boom- Badda- Bing...... you have a new manager that doesn't even really speak fluent english and couldn't tell you what that "thingy" does anyway. If it hasn't happend to you yet, it can't be far off. Some of our own think it would relieve the current shortage.
It will of course. Your tax dollars will fund it. Your quality of life will decrease and you'll be working for the formerly "disadvantaged". The employers will finaly have the "stepford wives" as employees and YOU WILL FUND IT.
Again I must ask, what research do you have to support your assumption that educational and care standards will fall off so? You got angry about Shandi calling you a racist but this whole paragraph reeks of the 'S' word........scapegoating.
Nursing has some real problems but who has dominated the field from the beginning and who continue to dominate it? White women. Nurses find themselves in this position because of a lack of focus and an inability to stick together. The profession has already deteriotated to conditions which are unbearable and you can't blame that on foreign nurses. You can't even blame it on hospital administration because we are letting it happen.