Conscience Schmoncience! Who cares what you believe?

Nurses Activism

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Not sure where this goes on allnurses. But since everyone has their own core beliefs that inform their nursing practice, I thought it would be interesting to more than just the political junkies.

Obama's Grave Assault on Medical Conscience Rights

by Kristan Hawkins

05/21/2011

Quote
During the past two years, Americans have seen the expansion of the federal government into sectors of their economy and personal life as never before. And earlier this year, the Obama administration quietly moved into a new area of American life, one of its most intimate, the patient-doctor relationship.

Like the Obama takeovers of the automobile industry, the banking industry and then the health care industry, the new conscience-rights assault is the administration's latest attempt to fundamentally change our nation as we know it.

In February, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced the rescission of most of the Bush administration’s 2008 conscience protections, removing the rights of doctors, pharmacists and other medical professionals to object to prescribing or dispensing known abortifacient drugs such as Plan B and ella. This rescission sends a clear signal to medical professionals nationwide—leave your conscience at the door, and if you morally object to a medical procedure or medication, then you should be in another business.

When Students for Life, Medical Students for Life and other pro-life medical groups wrote to HHS about the rescission, the agency defended its decision and cited the federal definition of abortion, arguing that abortion-causing drugs such as Plan B and ella are not covered under the definition of abortion, and therefore doctors do not have the right to refuse to prescribe or dispense these dangerous drugs.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=43627

I know I cannot convince anyone, but would like to promote some dialogue.

Let me ask a question.

Let's suppose that Plan B did not alter the endometrium, but it was specifically designed to kill the embryo and leave all other cells and processes in a woman's body completely unchanged. Or... let me use a more neutral verb. Suppose Plan B caused the fertilized ovum to undergo apoptosis.

Do you think that pharmacists and PMP's would be on firmer moral/philosophical grounds to refuse to prescribe/dispense the drug. I ask because some of the responders have made the point that the drug does not kill the embryo as if this is a relevant piece of the argument.

(Actually... I'm more of a libertarian and would like to see as few agents as absolutely necessary under government control. But, as a libertarian, I'm also very uneasy about people losing their licenses because of religious beliefs. As far as our abortion laws, I think we could study and learn from some European countries.)

I don't get this...a Government decision can force doctors to prescribe certain drugs? Just as a matter of interest, is the Government forced to provide full, comprehensive counseling and advice for women contemplating abortion? Every woman I've known who has deliberately had her baby aborted has been wracked with guilt afterwards - and I know some who had illegal abortions almost fifty years ago. They have never got over it.

Really......every women you know that has had an abortion is wracked with guilt?????? Please....

Excuse me, GHG and some others - - not everyone regrets their decisons. I had an abortion in 1978 and have no regrets. NONE. Despite precautions, I got pregnant while married to an abuser. This was not a marriage to bring a child into - and this was MY decision. It took me more than a year to finally leave him, and I shudder to think what my life would have been if I had stayed or had the baby.

NO REGRETS. Eventually another marriage, and two kids.

Not everyone has regrets. Or needs therapy.

And everyone should be able to at least know what all their options are.

Thanks Merlee......I think we should all be speaking up about this.

"Mandatory waiting periods, forced education and viewing of ultrasounds impinge upon the consciences of women seeking abortion as well as the healthcare providers who support their right to do so. I cannot take the arguments of those who want to refuse emergency contraception as matters of conscience until those same people campaign for the lifting of mandatory waiting periods, forced 'counseling' and the like. Until then this is an attempt to push a political agenda, nothing else."

Yes... it is political. Politics is how we determine the rules that govern our lives as citizens. It's really clear that you think it is unjust for the government to force a woman to carry an infant to term if she doesn't want to do so.

As a thorough-going libertarian, I would agree.

But you want the same weight of government to force PMP's and pharmacists to prescribe/fill scripts they don't want to.

Do you see any contradiction in your own arguments?

"Mandatory waiting periods, forced education and viewing of ultrasounds impinge upon the consciences of women seeking abortion as well as the healthcare providers who support their right to do so. I cannot take the arguments of those who want to refuse emergency contraception as matters of conscience until those same people campaign for the lifting of mandatory waiting periods, forced 'counseling' and the like. Until then this is an attempt to push a political agenda, nothing else."

Yes... it is political. Politics is how we determine the rules that govern our lives as citizens. It's really clear that you think it is unjust for the government to force a woman to carry an infant to term if she doesn't want to do so.

As a thorough-going libertarian, I would agree.

But you want the same weight of government to force PMP's and pharmacists to prescribe/fill scripts they don't want to.

Do you see any contradiction in your own arguments?

I don't claim to be motivated by conscience. I have a clear prochoice agenda and believe that a woman is the only one who should decide whether to carry her pregnancy to term or not. Therein lies the difference.

Unless she can abort her own baby, there's a third (4th, 5th etc.) person involved. If Plan B were OTC, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Do you believe that abortion will be the ONLY area in which HHS will want to dictate to health care professionals.

There are mumblings about providing rural health care by telling PMP's where they have to practice. Some responders have expressed concern for hypothetical pregnant women with only one pharmacist to get their morning after meds from, and have reasoned that this pharmacist cannot make decisions on moral grounds.

What about economic ones? After all... does the country need another dermatologist right now? Heck no! Make that medical graduate do a family practice residency and send him to the arm-pit of America in the middle of nowhere.

Where do you draw the line with regard to government power over personal freedom?

Back in 1991 my husband and I were having a lot of problems. I ended up not being faithful (once) and got pregnant. If there was a Plan B pill I most definitely would have taken it. Instead I ended up aborting around 5 weeks. Within a few months I had a very bad uterine infection. It was a terrible time. Being a Christian I went through a lot of guilt over the choices that put me in that position. (not the abortion itself)

Had I had a prescript for Plan B and the pharmacist not filled it due to moral conviction I wish I could have given him all my Dr's bills. Either for the abortion or the baby. As far as Dr. I would have changed to a Dr that would comply with my right to choose.

It was more traumatic to WAIT till after I found out I was pregnant before I could get the abortion.

Do I regret it? No. It was the best choice for me, my husband and my 3 children. 39 months, 23, months and 3 months. (Yes I was VERY fertile)

Even with everything that happened I am blessed beyond belief for my husband. We were able to patch things up and are about to celebrate our 25th anniv.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

"the department of health and human services (hhs) announced the rescission of most of the bush administration's 2008 conscience protections, removing the rights of doctors, pharmacists and other medical professionals to object to prescribing or dispensing known abortifacient drugs such as plan b and ella."

*** ya!!! great news. thanks for sharing.

My thing is my Dr knows what is going on in my life. She knows everything. I love my Dr.. The pharmacist doesn't know squat about what is going on with me. Just the medication they need to dispense. How dare they judge me or the medication. Be it birth control, the pill, ADHD medication, acne.. what ever. What if the pharmacist didn't believe in insulin? Would this person let a diabetic go without medication?

Between Dr and Patient.

As far as Dr's being told where they need to practice. I think of the show Northern Exposure. If the Gov't funded their education till the debt is paid why not send them where the greatest need it for their specialty? Are they working for loan reduction?

I fear this could turn into a debate rather then open dialog. :( Everyone has their right to opinion including Drs, nurses, and pharmacists. Sometimes it is best to keep them quiet and do the jobs we have been given. If you have a problem with the job then it is time to find a new one or work in a place that agrees with ones own convictions.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Do you think that pharmacists and PMP's would be on firmer moral/philosophical grounds to refuse to prescribe/dispense the drug. quote]

*** They have no moral/philosophical grounds. If they can't dispence the treatments or medications needed by their patients and indicated by patient condition they should have chosen another field. Pharmacists have a wide range of job options where the question would never even come up. Our ICU pharmacist for example never faces these issues. Even more so for physicians. The vast majority of specialities never face the issue at all.

My thing is my Dr knows what is going on in my life. She knows everything. I love my Dr.. The pharmacist doesn't know squat about what is going on with me. Just the medication they need to dispense. How dare they judge me or the medication. Be it birth control, the pill, ADHD medication, acne.. what ever. What if the pharmacist didn't believe in insulin? Would this person let a diabetic go without medication?

Between Dr and Patient.

As far as Dr's being told where they need to practice. I think of the show Northern Exposure. If the Gov't funded their education till the debt is paid why not send them where the greatest need it for their specialty? Are they working for loan reduction?

Using your reasoning, why do we need pharmacists at all?

Regarding government funded medical school... how about all Americans with educational loans? Should they be told where they can work? How much they get paid? You know... all the students in Schools of Education should think about the fact that kids in our inner cities can't read. And do you realize how much social pathology exists in the inner city??? If there are people with student loans working on degrees in Social Work why don't we tell them where to live and work. Let's see... the graduating class of the U. of Michigan everyone of them goes to work in downtown Detroit. And the graduates of Columbia... hmmm there is no end to the squalor in the NYC area. Georgetown? Ah, we'll fix all those terrible schools in downtown Washington DC.

Again... where do you draw the line between government power and personal freedom.

Using your reasoning, why do we need pharmacists at all?

Regarding government funded medical school... how about all Americans with educational loans? Should they be told where they can work? How much they get paid? You know... all the students in Schools of Education should think about the fact that kids in our inner cities can't read. And do you realize how much social pathology exists in the inner city??? If there are people with student loans working on degrees in Social Work why don't we tell them where to live and work. Let's see... the graduating class of the U. of Michigan everyone of them goes to work in downtown Detroit. And the graduates of Columbia... hmmm there is no end to the squalor in the NYC area. Georgetown? Ah, we'll fix all those terrible schools in downtown Washington DC.

Again... where do you draw the line between government power and personal freedom.

Actually the Gov't does in a round about way. The Govt says "you have this type loan. If you work so many years in x area doing y job we will reduce or cancel your loan".

My friend got her teaching degree. Stafford loan. She worked 5 years in an inner city school and had her entire college loan cancelled. Then she got a job on the outskirts of town in a 'nicer' area.

Right no the VA hospital is hiring nurses right out of school and one of the benefits is for every year you work they will pay a percentage of your education loans. (it is a hard job to get)

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