MD, DO, NP, DC, OD -- Who deserves the title Physician? - page 2
our professional scope of practice asserts that our role is to assess, diagnose, and treat in health and illness. from assessing, diagnosing, treating - diabetes, thrombosis, heart disease,... Read More
Jan 10, '07Joined: Jan '07; Posts: 12; Likes: 2WOW!! What great threads! If the original question is who deserves the title, then Webster College dictionary defines Physician as " 1. a person who is legally qualified to practice medicine; doctor of medicine, 2. a person engaged in general medical practice, as distinguished from a surgeon."
Its all about the legality of issues here in the good old USA.. That thanks to the Esquires (defined "as a title of respect sometimes placed, esp. in its abbreviated form after a man's surname in formal written address: in the US, chiefly applied to lawyers, women as well as men. Abbr. Esp") of the world. Interesting that the lawyers don't demand a title of respect like the doctors do.
I appreciate the 5/8 treads from WyomingRN and Nightngale regarding autonomy and independence. In the final analysis, it's all about who best serves the patient or client, if you prefer. When healthcare reform comes.. Ya'll keep the faith, it's coming.. nurses will be seen as the general public currently does.. As the most respected and reliable of all the healthcare providers. Kudos to all!!
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --Albert EinsteinLast edit by mttopmama on Jan 11, '07
Mar 20, '07Joined: Mar '07; Posts: 5interesting assessments on the professions; however interesting they might be, they are neither accurate nor inclusive.
i daresay that i hope that doctors of chiropractic received a bit more education and are a bit more intelligent than what this misleading mudslinging might indicate.
of course, some people are bitter because doctors of chiropractic have wonderful results and are “stealing” pieces of the medical pie; however, the simple fact is that patients are becoming smarter and realizing that the solutions don’t lie in the poisons and potions offered by the medical community – great for them, bad for you. please do not misinterpret my meaning; i’m not throwing the dirt and mud back your way, i’m simply stating what is very obvious. and furthermore, i have to note that the practice of medicine *as it was meant to be* is wonderful. it’s a shame that all too often, it is practiced shamefully. instead of proper exercise, maintenance, and elimination of toxins, we’re cutting out women’s uteruses (and when i say “we’re”, i mean “you’re”). medical doctors are now simply treating as the pharmaceutical companies wish for them to treat (imagine a most entertaining puppet show and you will get the picture). so excuse me when i retort that medical doctors and nurses have no room to say nay.
that being said, let’s go through the topic at hand in a logical manner. your reasoning behind doctors of chiropractic not earning the title doctor is that you think we are uneducated. however, if we look at the simplest facts, you’ll find the chiropractors win that field. let's skip to the fields of science, biology, anatomy, physical diagnosis, radiographic diagnosis, diagnostic imaging, orthopaedic (or orthopedic) diagnosis, biophysics, biomechanics, physiology – we either do as well or better in these categories. you can have your pharmacology. we’ll stick with the stuff that works for most situations. if i have someone who walks in my office with a blood pressure of 150/95, i’ll send them your way – but for conservative care on neuromusculoskeletal conditions, there is no comparison and it doesn’t matter how much you might retort.
i feel that little justice on the field of chiropractic has been given so i find it my duty to set things straight. if you feel flabbergasted by the aforesaid, it's because this is a reply that defies what you know and what you might have falsely learned. i would love to invite you to email and even call if you have questions so that statements like the aforementioned are not made in true ignorance.
i believe that my eight years of education were better spent learning how to become a doctor of chiropractic than becoming a medical doctor. i can pull open my files and look at people’s progress and do so with a smile on my face. what percent of the medical population is satisfied in comparison? let us see, shall we?
for acute and chronic pain
"patients with chronic low-back pain treated by chiropractors showed greater improvement and satisfaction at one month than patients treated by family physicians. satisfaction scores were higher for chiropractic patients. a higher proportion of chiropractic patients (56 percent vs. 13 percent) reported that their low-back pain was better or much better, whereas nearly one-third of medical patients reported their low-back pain was worse or much worse"
journal of manipulative and physiological therapeutics, nyiendo et al. (2000)
that’s just low back pain. and look at that? 1/3 of your patients are getting worse? isn’t the first rule to not hurt your patients?
i’ll end with a succinct analogy. if you’re driving down the road and your “service engine” light comes on – do you:
a. ignore it and hope it gets better?
b. put masking tape over the light?
c. cut the cord that feeds the light?
d. take it to a mechanic, find the problem, and fix it?
common sense points you to answer d. skip the “when in doubt chose c.” bologna, this just makes sense people!
and on that note, i hope you all have a happy, healthy, and enjoyable life!
proud chiropractic physicianLast edit by rbrice1981 on Mar 20, '07 : Reason: TOS
Mar 20, '07Joined: Jan '07; Posts: 12; Likes: 2rbrice1981
Wow, what a defensive posture you have on your eduational preparation for the practice of chiropractic. Sorry to have stepped on your last nerve. While defending your education and treatment options, you might want to check into your state's board of statues for practice. Here's Colorado's just in case you think you can legally use the title physician
CRS Title 12 Article 33
12-33-118 Use of Title
A license to practice chiropractic entitles the holder to use the title "Doctor" or "Dr" when accompanied by the word "Chiropractor" or the letters "D.C.", and use the title of "Doctor of Chiropractic". Such license shall not confer upon the licensee the right to practice surgery or obstetrics or to prescribe, compound, or administer drugs, or to administer anesthetics.
My thread was about who can legally use the title. I checked Webster's again for the definition. Yep, it's still the same.
Webster College dictionary defines Physician as " 1. a person who is legally qualified to practice medicine; doctor of medicine, 2. a person engaged in general medical practice, as distinguished from a surgeon."
Enjoy your practice of Chiropractic as your state allows!
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein
Mar 21, '07Joined: Mar '07; Posts: 5Well, what an extemporaneous thing it would be to open up a chiropractic office without first checking your state's scope of chiropractic practice. Fortunately, neither Webster nor you hold the final on who is termed a doctor or physician. I believe the title "physician" and "doctor" are interchangeable to a limited degree as you would experience if you were to search at onelook.com (which searches many different dictionaries). When I applied to become a chiropractor in Illinois, the application process was to become a licensed chiropractic physician. Each state is different. It would appear that CO is similar; our scope simply prohibits invasive surgery, obstetrics, and prescriptive medicine. In Illinois, doctors of Chiropractic are titled both as Doctors and Physicians depending on who writes up the form. To me it makes no difference. We're portal-of-entry doctors and the trend is spreading as chiropractic research thrives.
It appears the thread was not started to determine as who can leagally use the term physician. If that had been the case, chiropractors would fit that. We just can't (and wouldn't want to) use the term medical physician. Instead it was titled, "...Who deserves the title Physician?". I don't have to point you to the title I'm sure. And it was my argument to stomp the theories that Chiropractors are not title-worthy.
Please don't think you stomped on my last nerve. I've reserved that nerve to third party payers. You haven't upset me nearly as much as they do on the daily.
DocLast edit by rbrice1981 on Mar 21, '07
Mar 21, '07Occupation: Nurse Educator Specialty: 13 year(s) of experience in NICU ; From: TX, US ; Joined: Nov '05; Posts: 8,750; Likes: 1,692Quote from rbrice1981I think that you said it best earlier in the post: it varies by state. Here in Texas, chiropractors face disciplinary action from their licensing board for using the term 'physician' in advertising.It appears the thread was not started to determine as who can leagally use the term physician. If that had been the case, chiropractors would fit that. We just can't (and wouldn't want to) use the term medical physician. Instead it was titled, "...Who deserves the title Physician?".
Mar 21, '07Joined: Mar '07; Posts: 5yes, you're right. In Illinois, we're very liberal and chiropractic has a lot of freedom. In Utah, chiropractors can practice minor surgery and obstetrics. In Washington State and Michigan, they can't tell a patient to drink water, take vitamin A or even adjust bones in the extremities. Vast vast differences I think. Most states are like Illinois (or slightly more restricting). You also have your polar opposites (UT vs WA and MI).
I would say that a very succinct summary would include:
1. YES, doctors of chiropractic deserve the title "doctor" and/or "physician" (either is a wonderful title to have and in my own mind COMPLETELY interchangeable; not so much in TX)
2. Drs. of Chiropractic go to more than a 3 year school (shakes his head at some of the rumors)
3. Chiropractic is multifaceted and should be respected as an equal among the healing arts professions
4. Research in Chiropractic has been demanded by the medical community; yet once submitted, there has been very little improvement on how certain people view us.
I sure hope that I've done my part to educate just a few people about chiropractic and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to squash a few of the misleading rumors and erroneous falsehoods. I thank those of you who emailed/messaged me.
If anyone ever has questions regarding chiropractic, please feel free to view the American Chiropractic Association's web (www.acatoday.com). Previously I had my email and www but the moderators deleted them, so if anyone eer wants to have a valid discussion, just private message me and we can go from there.
Remember that it is through this education process that we learn, and it is through learning that we see progress. One thing we ALL have in common, we want to see a HEALTHIER AMERICA. So let's "git 'er dun".
PS - don't mind the ; spellcheck's down!Last edit by rbrice1981 on Mar 22, '07
Mar 24, '07Occupation: Nurse Educator Specialty: 13 year(s) of experience in NICU ; From: TX, US ; Joined: Nov '05; Posts: 8,750; Likes: 1,692Quote from rbrice1981I hate to make it seem like I'm picking on you, but in the spirit of eliminating falsehoods related to your profession, I have to point out the following link to the Utah Chiropractic Physician Practice Act, issued in May 2006:In Utah, chiropractors can practice minor surgery and obstetrics.
Look under Part 6 - Scope of Practice - Division Regulation. Obstetrics and incisive surgery (essentially defined as any surgery where a cut is made) by chiropractors are explicitly prohibited in Utah.
Mar 24, '07Joined: Mar '07; Posts: 5don't feel that you're picking on me because my point is quite clear. I said minor surgery; that includes suturing and a few other things.
The point is ... scope, and other things (like titles) varies state by state.
May 18, '07Joined: Apr '05; Posts: 15; Likes: 1To everyone:
Did my part and wrote to everyone on the list. I am also a great adovocate of writing to reps. How else will they know? They are so busy with so many issues that if enough nurses write, then the topic may just register on their radar.
I am so sick of being treated at the level of housekeeping at our hospital. Ridiculous!
Do I think that teaching and nursing are still in the dark ages because of chauvanism? Absolutely, but rather, I think that the current reality is because women have held women in these fields back for so long, it has become ingrained within the professions (oh by golly, we better not speak up or we may get in trouble).
What "docs" do the Rn's at our hospital go to for family practice? The NP's in town.
With the reality of a doctor shortage, there will likely be more opportunity for NP's to branch out to medical specialties other than family practice. This is our time in history to make it happen and to perform the big push.
Nurses are too diffused as a group. We need to be unified and strong just as the AMA is.
Time to get real folks !
May 18, '07Joined: Apr '05; Posts: 15; Likes: 1I just have to respond about the Chiropractor issue.
When I was a little girl, my mother said the field of chiropracting was still considered in its infancy and had NO respect. They were considered "quacks." They kept pushing and now today, the "young folks" have no idea of their history but simply know it as a dignified profession.
For that reason, it is necessary for nurses to stay unified and keep pushing too in order to further their field(s).
Jun 21, '10Joined: Jun '10; Posts: 3; Likes: 2i am a dc and also considered a physician. i own several medical offices and prefer to have nps as i believe they are absolutely competent, hard working, and deserve way more credit than they are given. i also disagree with any assertion that a chiro should not be considered a physician only because of a limited scope which has been chosen by our profession. it must be understood (and i do disagree with most of my colleagues on this) that chiropractors have chosen to be drugless doctors but this does not dimish our ability for diagnosis, only treatment.
i've personally caught hundreds of misdiagnosed conditions by mds only to have my correct diagnosis confirmed by specialists. i'm not tooting horns or sticking out my chest, i'm just stating the fact that dcs do have the education; we draw blood, interpret labs, perform physical exams and urinalysis and our boards include mostly non-chiropractic medical based diagnosis questions. i believe personally that although the thought of taking a different approach was well-intended, the outcome has been disastrous for our profession and that after 8 years of college and all the science, we should just have the pharmacology in our program and if one chooses not to prescribe, that's their prerogative.
now to the issue of title. although i completely agree that people and insurance companies get to hung up on this issue. we chose our professions and we need to stick it out or go back to school. i personally am considering going back to get my np so that i can practice the way i believe i should. let them have their titles, we are helping people and that's really what matters.
Jun 21, '10Joined: Jul '08; Posts: 285; Likes: 254Quote from migsterwhy am i even responding to this?i am a dc and also considered a physician. i own several medical offices and prefer to have nps as i believe they are absolutely competent, hard working, and deserve way more credit than they are given. i also disagree with any assertion that a chiro should not be considered a physician only because of a limited scope which has been chosen by our profession. it must be understood (and i do disagree with most of my colleagues on this) that chiropractors have chosen to be drugless doctors but this does not dimish our ability for diagnosis, only treatment.
ok... how many patients have you ever admitted... oh that's right none.
how do you treat pneumonia? you can't copd? cant asthma? same story (and there are rcts that prove this one)
cellulitis? mi? cardiomyopathy? effusions? meningitis? embolic stroke? gastritis? gi bleed? cancer of any type? hypertension? pneumothorax? critical hypotension? you can't do any of it. can you read an ekg? no. can you tap a pleural effusion? no. do you know how to really work up chest pain? no. can you do a pelvic exam? no.
you are a chiropractor. you are not a physician. and you would never tell a real physician that you were also a physician because when they found out you were a chiropractor they would laugh in your face.
Quote from migsterfirst of all, i doubt it. i'm guessing at most a handful. second, no you don't have the education. how many rotations did you do in the hospital or out patient actually practicing medicine? none. you can read books all you want but until you put that knowledge to practice, you can't actually use it. that's why real physicians have clinical rotations and clinical residencies.i've personally caught hundreds of misdiagnosed conditions by mds only to have my correct diagnosis confirmed by specialists. i'm not tooting horns or sticking out my chest, i'm just stating the fact that dcs do have the education; we draw blood, interpret labs, perform physical exams and urinalysis and our boards include mostly non-chiropractic medical based diagnosis questions.
why did you bump a 3 year old thread.
Jun 22, '10Specialty: Trauma, Emergency, Urgent Care ; Joined: Feb '05; Posts: 49; Likes: 20but for conservative care on neuromusculoskeletal conditions, there is no comparison and it doesn't matter how much you might retort.
I have yet to me a chiro patient who was "cured" and did not require more (a lifetime usually) of treatments. There are a couple of chiropractors in my area that haunt the local FM station on Sunday nights. One has written a popular book. To listen to these guys...anything from sinusitus to pulmonary embolism could be managed with vitamins, good sleep habits and a series of subluxations. For the love....
Oh, and, in my opinion, the only physicians are MD/DO.