nurse on nurse bullying

Nurses Relations

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Nurse on nurse bullying, sadly, is nothing new. In the mid 80's the phrase with which many of us are acquainted "nurses eat their young" was coined by a professor of nursing. Research into the subject has been undertaken in the USA since the early 1990s with a rash of research appearing in the early to mid 2000s. The research confirms that this is a chronic problem in the Nursing profession. Whether it is viewed as a rite of passage or as something that nurses do to "vent" their own frustrations at the system appears to be at issue.

The current research grew from my witnessing nurse on nurse bullying following a return to work 6 weeks to the day from the date of surgery by a nurse after she had undergone major cancer surgery. The verbal ferocity of the attack, the fact that it was supervisor on an administrator, and of the fact that no one who witnessed it or who heard about it thereafter called out the perpetrator on her actions. The response by team members and the senior administrator was actually worse: "oh...that's the way she is. She's been that way for years. She does that to everyone." Clearly, that is not the correct response.

When this incident was recounted to other nurses from a variety of work environments, it was met with knowing shrugs. Nurses started to tell me their personal stories and stories of bullying they had witnessed from the time they were students. As a nurse educator, i decided to write a survey and to engage in some systematic research. I have created a survey of nurse on nurse bullying on Survey Monkey that will take 2 minutes and 23 seconds to answer. Your responses will help me to gather real information that can be quantified and measured, written up in an article and disseminated throughout the profession to enable us to get a grip on this problem. Here's the link to the survey. Stay tuned for the results. nurse on nurse bullying Survey

Specializes in Chief Nursing Officer.

If everyone treated everyone with respect and dignity it would be much better for our patients and much better for our profession. Yes, we don't have to all "like" one another but behaving in a professional manner and working as a team instead of individuals would at least provide excellent care for our patients. That by itself would be a wonderous thing. I read all the comments about how there are "much bigger problems" facing our profession and I agree we've got more than one problem; however, does it not seem ironic that we apparently cannot even agree on whether or not nurse to nurse bullying is a problem or the defination thereof? How can we agree on anything else if we cannot even face this issue? Our jobs would be so much easier if everyone was treated respectfully and our units were all fully staffed because at least this issue was conquered.

I've seen bullying and have been the target of bullying, but I agree there is definitely sloppiness in the usage of the term. Bullying should never be defined in terms of people's feelings. Bullying is about relative power. Power is usually about one person having formal authority over another person, but it could be about some people knowing things that others don't in a workplace politics kind of way.

I think a lot of important points have been made in this thread, and I think it is important to try to get to the root cause of the behavior you witness from nurses. In many cases there is too high of a workload, or there are institutional changes that creates some sort of chaos while employees are struggling to adapt to the new ways. Another thing to consider are age differences: A clinic run by all 25-year old nurses is going to run much different than a clinic where everyone is 60. But it isn't always obvious as nurses age that they aren't as physically capable as they used to be, and they might, instead, only see it as deficiencies in their co-workers.

Preceptors, or anyone else, working with new people may simply be impatient with the learning curve necessary to learn any new skill, job, or specialty. Some people simply can not and should not be doing these jobs, and some people can but just needs more time to really be doing it right, and its often hard for experienced people to really know the difference. It is hard for managers to fire people without lawsuits, and it is easier to try to get a worker to voluntarily resign, and so the process of running a new employee out often involves bullying.

I appreciate what all you all have to say in response to responses what I said even though I know some of it to be untrue from personal experience. I consider myself a strong person who will stand up for her rights and any one else I believe to be taking uncalled for abuse.

BTW, I wonder where the OP has run off to?

I just posted a quick list of bully behaviors that I related to part of. I am sure there are better lists out there somewhere. I am not defining the word exclusively.

I wrote this big long thing and lost it all which is probably better in the long run. It had too many personal details of little things that added up to big things when the manager joined in starting fake write-ups I had never experienced in my previous decade and a half at this fine medical center until I transferred to an area where they evidently had more time to play those kind of bully gang up games that did not happen in the hospital area where the managers were all fellow nurses. That's all. How was that for a big run-on sentence?

I believe that if my manager on top, the one doing the actual write-ups had been a nurse surely she would have called out her subordinate. FTLOG, she was going around asking ancillary staff to write me up. It was a team approach alright, ha! :cheeky:

A pharmacist manager told me he refused her requests one day to write me up for rudeness. He had worked with me for years even in the hospital under a lot higher stress conditions. He'd never witnessed me being rude at any time. He gave me the info but what could I do with it? He told her he didn't play those games. Now how often has that happened to you? A manager form another very large department approached you with such a warning...

I may be direct and anyone is welcome to take it anyway they want to. The people that matter will know it's honest and from the heart and not intended to hurt anyone personally ever. Just direct, maybe.

I feel like Spanked kind of hit the nail right in the head when he said it is rare but it does happen.

I am by no means a victim to anyone!

Y'all are right about a little pain, just a little bit though...

Ive been enjoying this song on the radio lately.

[video=youtube;68-J3wJjaDY]

Then this one came on that might help someone who is or was hurt by abuse. It's beautiful.

I love how Ronnie Van Zant put it here. Just gives me strength bullets, not real ones. :happy:

I just have to remind myself of where I come from. Strong people from good places.:inlove:

Gregg and Duane Allman and the whole Allman Brothers Band remind me too that I don't have to be tied to no...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUvxRjYqjEQWhoever said it has nothing to do with feelings, well...I disagree strongly and respectfully. Any abuse has a lot to do with feelings, IMHO.

I'd rather be with...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXswale5Kssthan working with big 'rude and unprofessional' lying backstabbing bullies, anyway!

Hi wondern,

My concern is this: Except for perhaps the first two items on your list, all of the items included are regular tactics involved in employing nurses and managing them (us), stemming from (and perpetuated by) the very top. I haven't personally observed or experienced the first two much in any regard in my professional life (from management or from coworkers/physicians/etc), though some people have I suppose.

You suppose correctly! Some nurses have been screamed at, including profanities, in front of patients and staff by other nurses, who when reported was also punished, for no good reason except standing up for their rights to not be cursed at at work. I'm glad you never experienced it. It's shocking but even more so when management punishes you for it as well as if you are a child when you did nothing to deserve such treatment.

It makes no sense to focus on each other (either through committing bad behavior against one another or through focusing on others' isolated bad behavior).

Saying it makes no sense makes no sense. Who else are we going to focus on? So just ignore other's isolated bad behavior? All fine and good until you start messing' with me with your bad behavior. Don't steal from me, don't mess with my personal belongings, don't rub your donut glaze all over my lab coat, don't bring donuts and set them out and say these are only for people that worked yesterday, don't tell the other techs not to help me out only work with me all day. They aren't your personal staff. Also don't go around calling people certifiable to other staff. Don't medical quiz coworkers in front of others in an attempt to embarrass them or prove their ignorance. Just stuff like that JKL33.

Take a look at this list and think about whether staffs are treated like this on the whole:

Attempts to make their concerns seem unimportant

Disrespectful communication

Excessive monitoring/writing up/reporting - including the encouragement to be "200% accountable" (i.e monitor, write up and report your peers)

Constant nitpicking and criticising - way too much "not quite good enough" (including all "Oreo" statements: Thanks for all your hard work! But, we still suck. Thanks so much!)

Attempts to make feel bad - we aren't doing good enough/we aren't making people happy/we are taking too long at this, that, or the other thing

Deliberately overloading - requires no explanation

Undermining - Any budget- or management-related stipulation that puts us at odds with our primary ethical duties

Purposely withholding information - I include any use of fake "statistics" here; lies about why we are doing things a certain way; lies about the origins errors

**

I suspect it's easy to focus on our peers because these behaviors by those who employ nurses and manage nursing service lines seem truly insurmountable.

You know what, just no, nothing is easy about being bullied. It would be easy if there were 'zero tolerance' but some people don't even believe in bullying. Identify and fire their bully butts!

Whatever one's definition, the issue of bullying in nursing amounts to infighting. The thing that makes any infighting so destructive is people's lack of ability to not engage in it and focus on it. Focusing on it is engaging in it. Otherwise, run-of-the-mill workplace bullies are one-offs. Refusing to engage them eventually stymies them.

Really? If only it was that easy. Not when management is one of the goon squad.

If this is such a big problem, then one must ask why it continues. It continues because when a harmful person with ill-intent is actually identified and this can be well-substantiated - - nothing major happens! Long before that person ever gets fired, everyone else will be warned and threatened about "our" behaviors. There will be more rules, for everyone. There will be more things declared "wrong." Definitions broaden. Stress increases. Suspicion of peers swells. Intents are questioned constantly. Fear increases. Pick, pick, pick, pick, pick: Nurses need more rules and more control and clearly they need to be policed - - say those who stand to benefit from such.

Who exactly are these people who stand to benefit, JKL33? Whose asking to be policed? Not me. I'm just asking managers to fire bullies not enable them by ignoring their abusive behaviors.

Death by a thousand picks.

I believe this phenomenon/sequence of events supports my overall premise: It is useful for others if we keep bothering ourselves with all of this.

Who please is it useful to? No one cares if we don't. If we don't fix it who will?

So no, I will not be focusing on Susie-who-didn't-include-me or Jamie-who-rolled-her-eyes, or Tracy-who-always-says-she's-busy-when-I-ask-for-help, or Brianna-who-said-I-did-something-but-really-I-didn't, or Stephanie-who-said-something-mean-about-tattoos, or Kristy-who-thinks-she-knows-everything or Ryan-who-pushes-meds-slower/faster-than-I-do.

And no JKL33, I will not be focusing on any of these idiots either as long as they don't mess with me! It all changes when you start writing me up for BS reasons because your goon squad is on a witch hunt. That's a true bully. I really give a care who does what as long as it doesn't affect me or hurt someone else.

wondern, I'm not saying that treating people poorly is okay. I'm saying that nursing would be on the upswing yesterday if we called BS on all of this and moved on.

JKL33, you aren't? You can't have it both ways. It actually sounds like you are saying just that when you suggest calling BS on something you readily admit has never happened to you. That is wonderful for you! What about the folks it has happened to? It's all BS until it affects you. I never suggested you focus on any of those people but your manger needs to. I feel like you're implying I do which is actually rather a put down. I just wanted to come to work not sit on my a** and shop for whatever online and in catalogs etc.

What BS??? It would be on the upswing if management stood behind their own policies of zero tolerance towards violence and bullying in the workplace but they don't. First we have to admit there is a problem and not call it all BS. If it's never happened to you then you really don't know.

I agree we are all in charge of our own feelings. When I come to work I just want to know what tech is assigned to work with me that day without a bunch of bulls**, or getting cursed out by another nurse for asking in a respectful manner.

You know the saying, " People won't always remember what you said or did but will always remember how you made them feel."? Well, that's how I took the points on that list that mentioned feelings. Bullying actually has a lot to do with feelings. No man, woman, or nurse is an island.

I'll never forget being so excited to be off my first PIC, after working in the same place just different new area for over 15 years, so I could get my raise and my manager saying to me in my meeting, "You should transfer before I write you up again." Wow, now that's encouragement! At least I made her work for it but gave myself hell in the meantime. It wasn't worth it in the long run. There were 4 other nurses in the position in the 3 years before me and it was basically a dream job so that could have been a clue but I didn't get it at first. Then I saw why. This other nurse didn't want anyone else to work with me, and she resented anyone working harder than her, "It makes me look bad...", she'd say. One tech stuck by me and is still friendly with me, dropping me a call now and again at home to check in on me.

This same manager withheld info from me until in a staff meeting in front of all the staff she confronts me about a Valium being missing and the narcotic count being off and I was the last one there. I'd been having the feeling that something was up that morning but no one was telling me. You know that crazy-making feeling? We still used paper and I had signed it out the other nurse just didn't see it and turned me into management prior to even asking me about it and that's how this great manager handled it. Maybe it's because she wasn't a nurse. Probably not, there are lots of good managers that aren't nurses I'm sure, they are just more ethical. I never thought a Magnet facility would employ such an unethical manager. I felt very disrespected by my manager for handling that in such a way in front of everyone calling me out. I was so happy to show them I had signed it out on the back as the form was full. Ha Ha! Thought you busted me for a measly ole Valium. Not that stupid! Sorry to disappoint. She could not find any patient errors or complaints from families so she employed the staff to come to her with anything they had to feed her with it seemed like to me. Oh well, 17 years in one magnet is long enough. The magnet sucked all my nursing power out of me it seemed. Maybe one day I'll go back. Right now I don't have to, so I'm truly fortunate for today.

Actually nursing would be on the upswing yesterday if nurses who've never been bullied did not speak out against the ones that have calling it all BS! :no:

...telling us to move on. I'll move on when I'm good and ready, and it seems this battle has just begun. Thank you.

I never thought a Magnet facility would employ such an unethical manager.

Good morning, wondern -

I truly hope you will re-read my post. I'm sorry, but you have made my point exactly perfectly. I couldn't have done it better myself.

Why do you think the terrible managerial nonsense you have experienced is tolerated?

If you don't think it goes to overall business motives of keeping us down - - well, I have a bridge to sell you or whatever the saying is.... :)

Take care...there's no hostility in this post. I just ask please, if you would, re-read from the perspective I tried to share, not your interpretation of my perspective. I was on a very specific track with my original posts (which was not to deny others' experiences but to point how how they fit very neatly into a business paradigm of controlling nurses - - it's why "all of this" is tolerated and encouraged and, yes, focused on, from the top of service lines on down) and I stand by what I said.

Good morning to you too, JKL33. I'm not in the market for any bridge. No hard feelings on my end. So you're saying this benefits management to keep us down so just ignore it. Is that what I'm hearing? I probably am unclear in that case. I don't get it, the deeper meaning. Who is to benefit?

Believe me, I reread your post multiple times and waited days before a second response. I was just surprised at what I thought I was hearing from you, on top of the fact that you say you've never experienced it. It is hurtful. It is about feelings. Even tough people have feelings that count.

I don't have to understand every word you said but tried; I did feel like some other's experiences were being denied. I stand by what I say and feel too. I also stand to be corrected anytime. What is this 'calling out the BS' business? That feels denying. Thanks for helping me with the words to use there. I don't mean to sound hostile either but I may appear that way because it is very emotional and traumatic as well going through all that BS!

When I speak of a battle that's just begun I'm speaking solely of the battle against nurse on nurse bullying, not with anyone on this board. No hard feelings, JKL33. :inlove:

Nurses need other smart nurses like your self to speak up for them which I seem to remember you doing from other posts. I guess I just felt denied of my experiences in this one and felt the need to question what exactly you mean? Thanks girl for your thoughtful reply.

If you are certain that you are being bullied and that the manager is behind it or complicit with it, then you need to leave that organization. There's really no other way around it. Your manager is your boss, for better or worse. Not being on good terms with your manager is a huge problem in any job. It doesn't make any sense to stick it out if you feel like you are being persecuted.

I've never asked myself "My manager is after me, should I stay working for him/her?" because the question is absurd. What I have asked myself is "Am I being bullied? If so, is the manager complicit or ignorant of this activity?" That's the hard question.

But you can't change a toxic work environment unless you are in a leadership position. Quitting is often the best decision because sometimes executives of the company you work for look at the turnover rate and know how much this costs them, and management gets closer scrutiny.

That's assuming that the place really is toxic. This is hard to tell, and the interesting about any kind of organization is that no one truly knows all the facts about what is going on. It's too easy to spin a stressful environments into a toxic environment, or a toxic environment into a stressful environment.

You know the thing about 'assuming' anything! It's way too easy for bullies, especially when they're in with the manager! If you're in the toxic environment you will know it. It won't be hard to tell. It will be shocking and unbelievable most likely when you discover the depth of toxicity you are in. :down:

Do you really think it's easy to tell the difference between a toxic and a stressful environment? A toxic environment isn't just a workplace where people are acting violent and threatening each other.

An toxic workplace can be one where the flow of information is being manipulated, the wrong people are being blamed and held accountable for faults, and there is covert favoritism and shunning of staff members. I don't think it is easy to determine if your workplace is toxic at all. Under-management can be as toxic as over-management, which is what we went through for a spell. If non-management staff members are taking it on themselves to discipline co-workers, often because management is negligent, this can make the workplace toxic. This is because non-management staff members don't have any privileged status in the organization, and this ability to abuse other staff members can easily be retaliated. This turns into the the establishment of cliques where a gang of staff members try to discipline what they see as low-performers or mistreatment of patients, but then you have problems not only of favoritism, of the cliques acting against the interests of the organization, and of workplace politics among the clique, but of the emergence of rival cliques.

You can join an organization and not notice any of this. If you just go in and do your job, the cliques might leave you alone. You might notice weird arguments among staff members, and claims of favoritism, but none of this might affect you. You will probably be working much harder than you should be, and that's why you are left alone. But if you do find out about the clique problem, or you are thrown into the clique politics unwittingly, you might think that the problem is this co-worker, or that co-worker, and that maybe some set of workers there are really the problem. If you do, you aren't seeing the root cause of these problems. It is often the more competent and highly skilled staff members who form and run the dominant cliques in this kind of situation, and this is because the cliques aren't the cause of the problems, but are the best and most feasible way of working around the problems caused by management neglect.

In a certain way, all of our workplaces are toxic, if only because even management is impotent in certain ways because of laws and regulations. Poor perfomers are kept on staff far longer than they should be, because it is actually hard to fire someone without the organization being sued for wrongful termination. It is hard to replace staff members, not just because of a nursing shortage in certain areas, but because hiring people is often the case of where the odds are good, the goods are odd. This said, what we mean by "toxic work environment" is well above and beyond the problems that organizations routinely have due to laws and regulations.

I agree with you parolang except the very last part where you talk about suing for wrongful termination because in will to work states there is no legal 'wrongful termination'. You can be fired for any reason right or wrong.

I am not a lawyer, but I thought that was the reason why companies try to establish a paper trail of write-ups and evaluations before they fire someone. Maybe wrongful termination isn't the reason.

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