This has been a heated discussion between some of my friends and I, so I thought I would bring it to the forum.
Should people who are going through a dnp programs and taking the SAME test we all took for our MSN - NP for national certification think their education 'doctorate" is a clinical doctorate?
Until there is a national standard and an elevation of the test (think along the USMLE) then I think anyone who thinks their DNP is a clinical doctorate is a joke.
*** We have two DNPs who are not advanced practice nurses. One works in the employee education department and another is an ICU nurse. They both got their DNP through U of P and nobody calls them doctor.
ugh... I think if we want to be respected as a profession, the first thing to do is get rid of professional and for-profit programs that have minimal standards, like U of Phoenix. Like I've said before, would you (the general "you") be comfortable being in the hands of a surgeon who attended an online program with no standards? Other fields are going down in flames (like clinical psychology) because they embraced these types of programs that are willing to give a degree to any warm body who will take out loans.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
ugh... I think if we want to be respected as a profession, the first thing to do is get rid of professional and for-profit programs that have minimal standards, like U of Phoenix. Like I've said before, would you (the general "you") be comfortable being in the hands of a surgeon who attended an online program with no standards? Other fields are going down in flames (like clinical psychology) because they embraced these types of programs that are willing to give a degree to any warm body who will take out loans.
*** I disagree. In my opinion the whole DNP as entry to advanced practice makes us (nursing) look like a bunch of wannabe's with low self esteem. The whole push to DNP makes us subject of derision and scorn from the other members of the team. Any DNPs insisting on being called "Doctor" in the clinical setting, something that doesn't even seem to be an issue with the other professions who have gone to doctorate, makes it much worse.
I don't think we disagree, necessarily. I also think the DNP as entry to advanced practice is untenable. I just think that for-profit programs are also really, really horrible for the field.
You guys should be fighting for more clinical hours of training and more basic science courses (eg. more courses on phys, pathophys, pharm, etc) in the dnp programs.
In my opinion, they would be more useful in the clinical setting than Capstone projects or courses on public health. There are MPH and DrPH programs that provide solid training in the area of public health, if one's interested. It's hard to think of something as a "clinical" doctorate when it doesn't offer a significant increase in clinical training over the master's programs. Is the DNP still a doctorate? Sure. Do I (and, it seems like, many of you as well) consider it a clinical doctorate? No. If the coursework/clinical hours changes to provide more clinical training, then I wouldn't have a problem considering it a clinical doctorate.
Edit: Just wanted to add (since I can't otherwise communicate this), for the people PMing me, I can't respond to you until I get to 15 posts, it seems like. So, please don't think I'm just ignoring you. I'll respond once I get my post count up. :)
LOL, just to correct his post. Lets see I had 12 hours of patho and 12 hours of pharm in my masters program.
I had another 12 hours of patho/pharm in my DNP. I won't go into the pharm and patho in my BSN.
So just how much is enough? Thats already way more then med students get.
If you honestly think that nurses and NPs/DNPs get more pathophys and pharm training than physicians do, there's nothing I can do or say that would change your mind. It's clear that you have a hatred of physicians which won't let you engage in any reasonable discussion regarding healthcare issues and education. And it's clear that you won't listen to anyone supporting physicians.
I'm sorry for whatever it is you've experienced in the healthcare field that has caused you to become this bitter against physicians and physicians-in-training. I hope you find happiness in your career/life someday.
Many DNPs have clinical requirements. You have been told all this before but keep up the same mantra.
I've never argued that DNPs don't have clinical requirements. In your haste to insult me, as usual, you've misread my posts. I said that you guys should be demanding more clinical hours of training. Notice there's a big difference between saying that there's no clinical requirements in dnp programs and suggesting increasing the number of clinical hours of training in DNP programs.
Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.
Last time I looked, I had double the pharm hours of the average medical student. The 3, 4th year and even the interns who would come into the OR had a very limited pharmacology knowledge. At least at the depth that anesthesia providers have.
I know you need to come here to build up the way you view yourself vs nurse practitioners. I get along fine with physicians who treat me as a peer. Something I learned that you are to young to know. It is not the initials behind your name. We all have areas of expertise. That is why medicine is a collaborative endeavor and not the old captain of the ship.
You are a medical student. No offense, but you don't know anything yet. LOL
I would bet you are either 3rd year and new 4th year.
Do you really need to hang out in the nursing forums? Must not be to difficult, I had absolutely NO time as you do in my programs.
May 11, '11 by studentdrtobe I'm actually a medical student in my clinical years currently and, to be honest, a lot of this disrespect (at least in my experience and those of my close friends at other med schools) is really indoctrinated by the nursing and ancillary staff rather than attendings/residents. As another poster so eloquently said, "poop flows downhill." You might be surprised but the nursing (and other ancillary staff...though it's generally the nurses) really crap on med students and residents. The first thing we're taught when we enter the clinical years is don't anger the nurses. If you do, you will never get more than an hour's rest on on call duties. On some rotations, residents brought donuts/other breakfast items in everyday to "appease" the nurses; apparently, the nurses on staff are known to page you constantly at night for irrelevant stuff if you didn't. Who's side are the attendings going to take? The nurses, who have been there for a while and will be there for a while, or the residents who will be there only for the 3-7 years of training? Hint: it's the nurses
Wow, I read most of the post and I can truly say I have learned quite a bit about the DNP program. I think the biggest problem with nursing all together is there is no consistency. And the DNP is sort of adding to that seeing as how some programs are clinical and others are not. I know the people in that program work really hard and my hat goes off to them. As far as the title "Doctor" goes, I have mixed feelings about it. I understand the argument of wanting to be called by the title that was earned which is a doctorate. My concern is that patients may perceive the NP as a physician and I think that is not right, because at the end of the day we are NP's (and proud of it). But in the same breath, it seems unfair to not utilize your title because of confusion. As for me, I will be finishing my FNP/MSN in a few weeks. I don't think that the DNP should be an entry level for becoming a NP...I honestly don't. Especially when it is not something that I would want at this point. I think it should be a choice. I am not sure of what I would do differently if I was graduating with my DNP right now, unless I wanted to teach. And I tend to lend towards pushing for more clinical info in the program as opposed to the latter. We get enough policy, research and quality improvement in our MSN. I think if it were more medicine based it would be more respected and accepted. That's just my two cents ...:)
Specializes in telemetry, cardiopulmonary stepdown, LTC. Hospice.
There are differences between being a Doctor of Medicine and a Doctor of Nursing. They are two different focuses in healing, though certainly they overlap in quite often. Although this is certainly not what I have found with ALL MD's, (but enough to state it) many of them tend to offer two choices: give it pills or cut it out. There seldom seems to be much discussion about any other facet of that patient's healing, respect for alternative choices in treatment, or much time spent on addressing the psychosocial issues that might be involved in the disease process for that patient. I feel that nursing is a much more holistic pathway, and therefore much more interesting to me. So when I achieve a Doctorate in Nursing, that is a whole different kettle of fish than being a Doctor of Medicine. I think healthcare works the best when both disciplines cooperate together to bring out the greatest potential in both. I've seen it happen, and that's my goal.
Specializes in telemetry, cardiopulmonary stepdown, LTC. Hospice.
May 11, '11 by studentdrtobe I'm actually a medical student in my clinical years currently and, to be honest, a lot of this disrespect (at least in my experience and those of my close friends at other med schools) is really indoctrinated by the nursing and ancillary staff rather than attendings/residents. As another poster so eloquently said, "poop flows downhill." You might be surprised but the nursing (and other ancillary staff...though it's generally the nurses) really crap on med students and residents. The first thing we're taught when we enter the clinical years is don't anger the nurses. If you do, you will never get more than an hour's rest on on call duties. On some rotations, residents brought donuts/other breakfast items in everyday to "appease" the nurses; apparently, the nurses on staff are known to page you constantly at night for irrelevant stuff if you didn't. Who's side are the attendings going to take? The nurses, who have been there for a while and will be there for a while, or the residents who will be there only for the 3-7 years of training? Hint: it's the nurses
I can totally believe this. Having worked with some pretty angry nurses, I can see this happening with no trouble. I also know of many nurses who were terrified to call doctors-residents or otherwise, even when they knew they HAD to call about a certain issue, because they didn't want to be treated like garbage and screamed at. I think there is plenty of this behavior on both sides, and it's a shame.
Personally, I was always happy to call residents, because most of the time I didn't get the horrid attitudes and arrogant behaviors I got with attendings. It was a relief to speak to someone who just genuinely wanted to do a good job and think things through, and was open to input from the nurse.
Well said Hoosienurse. And studentdoctorbe is probably very right. Idk why but some nurses do mistreat med students and Residents and docs and their fellow nurses/nursing students. The sad fact is that it does happen. Just as some docs mistreat/hate nurses with a passion. What I can't understand is why we can't all just get along. We are all in the health care field with a common goal which is to help the patient and promote wellness. Regardless of if you are a physician, DNP, NP :), nurse, MA or nurse assistant or the housekeeper. Everyone adds value and is important. The whole cast system them really bothers me. I will be glad to be a nurse practitioner and my goal will be to help my patients as best as I can. I also want us all to get along and stop fighting over titles and status. If we all focus on helping patients imagine how much further we would be. :)
ixchel
4,547 Posts
Oh lord I promise I can use proper spelling/grammar! Haha! I'm on my phone and didn't proof read.