NP salary negotiations

allnurses Guide · Jul 18, 2009

Wow....quite a difference there. With all due respect, your proposal certainly was the "dream" situation, and I have to say I'm not surprised they didn't accept it. From my limited experience, I think their counter offer was pretty much in line with what my classmates and I have been offered, with the exception of salary, which runs somewhat higher in the Boston area. They obviously liked you if they made a counter offer, so that's something. Are people in other parts of the country getting this a high a salary as a new grad, with that much $ for continuing ed? May I respectfully offer my two cents, not as an NP but as someone with many years of managerial and hiring experience? I always expected people I was interviewing to ask for more than the salary/benefits offered, as that's the way the game is played. However, I tended to quickly put those that asked for unreasonable compensation to the bottom of the pile. I felt that they hadn't done their homework to find out what was usual and expected for that type of position, and maybe didn't really understand what the position entailed. I'm not inferring that that's what you did-I'm just speaking in general terms. Again, this is just one person's opinion, and I'm certainly not the be-all and end-all. I had the benefit of speaking with several NPs who precepted me in school and got their opinions on what was usual compensation in my area. Their input helped me to have a clear picture of what I could expect when job hunting. I know you're looking outside your home area and may not have that opportunity, but maybe you could get some info from this site. I hope I haven't offended you with my frankness, and I truly hope you get a great offer and a great job!!!

nursetim, NP · Jul 18, 2009

That is just it, they never countered. As I said before, I never expected to get what I asked for. I expected some compromise on both our parts. If what I sent them torqued them off, that is what their offer did to me as well.

BTW, when I am asked what salary I'm looking for I usually say 70k and I am usually told to raise my sights. The recruiter that arranged this was shocked at the offer as being way to low. He said he would have countered 85-90k, so I was off by 5k.

from what I have seen 4 weeks is standard at this level, as is 1 week paid CME ranging from 2-5k allowance.

To my way of thinking, they wanted someone to work 80-90 hours/week and pay just a smidgen more than they do an RN. If that was their best offer coupled with the visit I made there, I'm better off not there.

allnurses Guide · Jul 18, 2009

If they were expecting you to work that many hours, then you were not off base with your proposal. Man....sounds like they want a slave, not an NP!!! You are better off not working there. Are you finding that most places are offering an annual salary as opposed to an hourly rate? I encountered both, and wasn't sure what was better. I thought the salary sounded more "professional", but if you're going to work a ton of hours maybe hourly is the way to go. Regardless, we do need to be paid what we're worth, and sometimes that's easier said than done.

Sheri FNP-C · Jul 18, 2009

BCgradnurse,

I only found salaried positions. I am currently salaried (as an RN in administration) and know how many unpaid hours a week I work, so I would have loved an hourly NP position. Oh well, hopefully I will work less unpaid hours at my new job! I would definitely recommend an hourly rate if it was offered!

That being said, I only know 1 hourly NP and she is not really treated as an equal, ie she has to prescribe the meds the MD likes, etc. So I guess if the pay structure is tied to respect, then the decision becomes more difficult.

ANPFNPGNP · Jul 18, 2009

Here is what I countered with. Please note as you read what I wanted, I neverexpected to get it. It was solely for negotiation purposes.
Contract for one year.
Salary Compensation:
You will receive as payment for services rendered a base salary of $95,000 (ninety-five Thousand Dollars) per annum for the first year of employment. Bonuses waived the first year, salary applied to 50 hour work week. All hours work thereafter compensated at a rate of $65/hour.
Reimbursement Relocation:
Nurse Practitioner Employee shall receive up to $10,000 for relocation benefit, to be arranged and paid by employer directly to moving company.
Vacation/Personal/Holiday Time:
30 days paid time off
10 days of the 30 days available after 90 day probationary period
3 sick or personal days, after 90 day probationary period
8.5 Practice recognized holidays
3 consecutive bereavement days for immediate family in accordance with Practice Employee Manual
Professional Meeting/Continuing Education Units:
$7000 annual allowance and 2 weeks paid to attend professional meetings
Malpractice/Professional Liability:
Will be paid by the Practice
Health, Dental and Life Insurance Stipend
Nurse Practitioner Employee shall receive full health insurance to include spouse, dental waived, vision waived. Short and long term disability provided by employer to employee.

Let me get this straight...you're a brand new NP? I have 5 years of experience and I only get $50 per hour WITH NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER and I'm one of the higher paid NP's around. There is just NO WAY you're going to get any where near this even with experience!

nursetim, NP · Jul 19, 2009

Yeah, impossible things are achieved by people who don't know better. Thanks for the reality. Are you my sister by any chance?

core0 · Jul 19, 2009

Yeah, impossible things are achieved by people who don't know better. Thanks for the reality. Are you my sister by any chance?

Note this is unsolicited advice from some guy on the internet. Take it or leave it. Its not personal criticism but I think that there are some lessons here.

The issue is that like most things in life you get one chance to make an impression. Salary negotiation is one of those things. You have to demonstrate that you understand the market. This is tough because you probably have no experience negotiating NP salaries and they do. Also you are in a market that is not your home. This is known as information asymmetry in economics.

They sent you a low ball offer. There are a couple ways to treat this. One is to tell them that is an unacceptable offer. This puts the ball back in their court. They can either come up with a better offer or not. This is where knowing what the averages are. Just looking at the numbers, I can tell you the new grad PA offers for Texas average $80k. What you asked for was around 85th percentile for all PAs. FP traditionally pays on the low end of the salary scale. The median FP new grad PA salary in 2008 was $72k vs $75k for all other specialties.

The other way is to come back with an offer that is about 10-25% above where you want to be. Then negotiate to some acceptable point. In either one of these you have to know what your walk away points are. It may be salary, it may be insurance, it may be vacation everyone is going to have something (or a combination of somethings that they must have). Usually the walk away point needs be more flexible for someone that has no experience.

The problem that I see is that your "dream sheet" was so over the top that it gave the employer pause. You could argue that there original offer was so low that this was an appropriate response (kind of go to hell response). If you were interested in the job at all then this probably isn't the best response. My response to really low ball offers is to tell them that I don't think that we will be able to come to an agreement. This tells them that I'm not going to waste my time with them. If they ask further I tell them what percentile their job offer is in and why it is unacceptable. If they want to up the offer then I will make a counter offer. Otherwise, I move on (assuming that I have other options).

There is a good article on salary negotiations (on the Department of State Website of all places):

http://www.state.gov/m/dghr/flo/c21638.htm

I would point out the section on discussing the salary offer:

"

Present a salary range that demonstrates your knowledge of the local market value.
When requesting a salary range be sure to include a record of your contributions that defend the amount of compensation you are requesting.
In salary negotiations demonstrate the benefit to the organization in paying you more.
Be realistic in the amount requested.
Be sure to include other types of compensation that would be valuable.
Address the interests of the boss, therefore, know the interests of the boss.
Proposal should be grounded on objective criteria."

In my opinion you didn't demonstrate knowledge of the local market and you weren't realistic. The other thing that I notice from your dream sheet is the amount of vacation and CME. While you might think that this is standard I would disagree. The average for new grads in the PA world is 2-3 weeks. The average does not approach 4 weeks until 8 years in the current job. The signal that I would worry about sending is that you are someone that does not want to work hard. You are new to a job, producing no income but are asking for 30% of your time off (including CME). This is a hard concept for people that are coming from an hourly situation to grasp. If you are not their you are not producing income. Asking for a lot of vacation up front sends a signal that you are more interested in time off than producing for the practice. The overtime over 50 hours says the same thing. Salary is salary, hours should be discussed as part of the duties in my opinion. Once the hours are defined you can decide if the salary is worth the hours. Time is money in private practice. This is a big difference from large institutions.

The other issue is that it pays to understand how benefits work. In general there are some things that by law have to be the same for everyone in the practice. For example health benefits and retirement have to be the same for everyone. The reason that this is important is that if they give you more benefits then they have to increase them for everyone. This just made the benefit orders of magnitude more expensive. Vacation can vary but it has to vary within a policy range. For example everyone with 1-2 years = 10 days 3-4 years 12 days etc. Again making an exception for you means that all their expenses go up. For most places certain benefits are fixed by policy, others are negoitable such as CME amount and days.

There are three books mentioned in the State Department Website:

Chapman, Jack, (2001) Negotiating Your Salary: How to Make $1,000 a Minute, Berkeley, CA: Ten Speed Press.

Krannich, R. (1990) Salary Success: Know What You're Worth and Get It!, Woodbridge, VA: Impact Books.

Medly, H.A. (1984) Sweaty Palms: The Neglected Art of being Interviewed, Berkeley, CA: Ten Speed Press.

The first two are definitely worth the money. They offer priceless advice on getting the best salary. The third is kind of dated and doesn't really address the changes that have gone on in the job market. Interviewing has changed a lot and there are some techniques such as group interviews that are not covered. If you don't interview well its still worth a read.

If you didn't want the job (and I think there were a lot of red flags there) then that was an appropriate response. On the other hand simply informing them that you didn't think that it would work may have gotten a better (even acceptable) response. Your response burned bridges uneccesarily in my opinion. Many new grads get focused on the salary and compensation in the first job. Talking about job responsibilities and duties shows professionalism and allows you to command a higher salary when the time comes (in my opinion).

Good luck with the job search.

David Carpenter, PA-C

nursetim, NP · Jul 19, 2009

Thank you David, What you said helps. There really was no discussion of hours, responsibilities (Other than informing me that I would be starting and responsible for running the new office.) nothing was said by the owner.

During the phone interview I was asked what I was looking for salary wise. Following the general tone and jovial nature of the person I was talking to, I said 70k to 200k. She laughed, The response I was hoping to elicit. She said that in a few years that may be possible.

It is better that I did not get the job I think. Well, live and learn and off to NM for the next interview.

MissDoodaw · Jul 20, 2009

Good Luck nursetim! Let us know how this one goes!

nursetim, NP · Jul 26, 2009

I just got back fro NM interviewing for a correctional position. This proves to me the old saying "God closes one door but opens another." and "God looks after drunks and fools." I don't drink . I was offered the job as I walked into the hotel I was staying at.

Salary and benefits are still up in the air, but if they are in the same ballpark, I'm taking the job.

Sheri FNP-C · Jul 26, 2009

Yeah!!! I was hoping you would keep us updated! Let us know about the salary, benefits, how you feel about moving, etc.....we want the scoop!

MissDoodaw · Jul 26, 2009

Congrats Nursetim!!

My first student ARNP clinical was in a Miami correctional facility. I was scared to start, but I ended up learning a lot and enjoying the very fast pace.

And I personally love NM!

I'm graduating in a week and a half -so I would love it if you would keep us posted regarding the negotiation process. :yeah:

Thanks and Good Luck!