Need help with boss and ethical dilema...

Nurses General Nursing

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I work for a company which I will not name here, but I need your advice.

I am a nurse and I work for a DME company.

I had a patient refuse their oxygen. The patient is a smoker, in his home, doesn't feel short of breath, yet overnight pulse ox shows less than 88% for over 20 minutes. I educated him on his low o2, and what effects this could have on him should he not follow MD orders. The patient still refused. I had him sign a refusal letter and was later told by my boss that we need to first talk to the doctor to see if the doctor wants us to keep it in their home until we get another overnight pulse ox. The patient told me even if it's low again "I DON"T WANT IT" I was told that "my job is to make the pt compliant" as "this is what the doctor is expecting us to do". I told them ABSOLUTELY NOT...that my job was to be a caring nurse, patient advocate and that I would inform the patient of their rights, inform them of possible outcomes should they not follow doctors orders, but that they have the right to refuse treatment.

The sales rep at the company will set up oxygen in a heartbeat, because he gets paid for every o2 set up...but I have this one patient who refused it 4 weeks ago, they said the patient is to set up an appt with the doctor before we pull the o2...and guess what...this company is billing medicare for a service the patient refused...they are telling me we can wait on the doctor to tell us what to do...I thought the patient has the right to refuse regardless of what the doctor wants. Am I correct, or am I missing something? Is this a form of medicare fraud?

I love the patients I go and visit and the stress is very low normally, so I don't want to quit...

Help!

It's cheating.

Just legally, unfortunately.

DC the oxygen.

J

I just saw an email from my bosses boss that said "if a patient wants a pick up, you must inactivate them that day". She goes on to say "do not hold pick ups to keep your numbers high" I brought this to my bosses attention and he said "they are talking about pt's that are in nursing homes or on hospice" and I think to myself, then why does it say "if the patient wants a pick up"...I think I got fed some BS!

and I looked at our bill of rights that we have the patient sign. It says they have the right to refuse treatment...there is nothing in there that says...after we speak with the doctor.

I used to be a case manager at home health. when a patient refused our services, we had them sign a discharge, then sent a fax to the doctor that pt refused and had the doc sign the dc order.

But here, I am being threatened that "we will lose business if we go behind a doctors back...our job is to get them compliant" this is coming from a young punk salesperson who is friends with my boss... and my boss has also done some other shady things.

In my heart, I know they are being dishonest to keep their numbers up. The sales person gets paid $100/oxygen set up in our office.

Why is it so hard to get the d/c order?!!?? Whether or not the doctor 'likes' it, the pt is refusing the O2, and it should not have been left in the home. Get the order.

Because it's all a numbers game, when we lose an oxygen patient, they don't like it.

I told them in my interview that I was honest, hard working, and a patient advocate, and that I am ethical.

Yesterday I said "I realize this is a business and they are in it to make money, but as soon as you hired me and I tell my patients that I am a nurse, my hat changes from sales person to compassion, advocate, caring, etc.

You see, even nurses in this job must call patients if they are not on oxygen, and see if they are having any symptoms that would give us a reason to call the doc for an overnight order...in hopes that we will get them on o2...this is the part I dislike about this company...but they want everyone to be a salesperson.

Specializes in Psych.

I dont see this as a problem, really. He has an order for the 02 and it is there for him, whether he chooses or not to use it is his right. But it is still there, should he change his mind and use it. I dont see the difference between that and my grandfather who is on home o2 PRN. On a typical day he does not need it ( he has end stage lung fibrosis), however there are times that he feels that he needs it and uses only on those days. He gets charged every day that is there even though he only uses it PRN.

I dont see this as a problem, really. He has an order for the 02 and it is there for him, whether he chooses or not to use it is his right. But it is still there, should he change his mind and use it. I dont see the difference between that and my grandfather who is on home o2 PRN. On a typical day he does not need it ( he has end stage lung fibrosis), however there are times that he feels that he needs it and uses only on those days. He gets charged every day that is there even though he only uses it PRN.

The difference is that they are willing to sign a refusal, one already has....they both don't want it!

Specializes in Psych.
The difference is that they are willing to sign a refusal, one already has....they both don't want it!

At this point in time. What if they change their minds in the future. As long as there a doctors order for it I do not see a problem with it. And if I was the Dr. I dont know if I would D/C the order, because you do not know if the person is going to change their mind and use it.

Specializes in Trauma Surgery, Nursing Management.

I am kinda nervous about a smoker having O2 in the house in the first place. I just did a facial split thickness skin graft on an elderly man who lit a cig while having his NC on. Granted, your pt is refusing, so it isn't such a concern, but dang!

Your job is to get the patient to comply? That sounds about as ridiculous as my getting a patient to comply with having a nerve block for an appendectomy! If they don't want it, THEY DON'T WANT IT! I think your manager is a jackwagon. Too bad you can't find a similar job sans the Gestapo boss.

I am kinda nervous about a smoker having O2 in the house in the first place. I just did a facial split thickness skin graft on an elderly man who lit a cig while having his NC on. Granted, your pt is refusing, so it isn't such a concern, but dang!

Your job is to get the patient to comply? That sounds about as ridiculous as my getting a patient to comply with having a nerve block for an appendectomy! If they don't want it, THEY DON'T WANT IT! I think your manager is a jackwagon. Too bad you can't find a similar job sans the Gestapo boss.

Oh, tell me about it...half of them smoke and have the no smoking sign on their window. It drives me nuts!

Yes, I was told the doctors are expecting us to get the patient to comply...I said "NO IT"S NOT" my job is to care, educate, be an advocate, and it's their job to make the choice.

I agree!

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