My First Subpoena

RN1989 · Sep 26, 2008

Any advice YOU feel like giving this poster has nothing to do with MY specific experiences. You are free to give any advice you wish, whether it contradicts someone else or not. I don't desire to get into specifics with you regarding my personal experiences. If you disagree with me - fine. But I'm not in the mood to give you any specifics just so you can tailor your comments to my comments and start down a different road on this thread because you don't agree. Some threads just are not worth getting into passionate discussions over.

jenfromjersey · Sep 26, 2008

I agree with the previous posters..My co-worker was called to testify in a similar case. Turns out she didn't even get to that point because they read her documentation and she clearly documented that the site was cleansed with betadine. That was what the defense was hoping to use to say that the defendent's alcohol level was falsely elevated because the nurse cleansed with alcohol before obtaining the specimen. Her documentation saved her from having to go to court and testify.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

BillEDRN · Sep 27, 2008

Any advice YOU feel like giving this poster has nothing to do with MY specific experiences. You are free to give any advice you wish, whether it contradicts someone else or not. I don't desire to get into specifics with you regarding my personal experiences. If you disagree with me - fine. But I'm not in the mood to give you any specifics just so you can tailor your comments to my comments and start down a different road on this thread because you don't agree. Some threads just are not worth getting into passionate discussions over.

Wow. Are you always this helpful to those that ask for clarification of the advice you give, or are you in general just an *ss? I'm not sure what got you so riled up, but I can assure you that I was in good faith asking for clarification about your statement to the effect that personal effects may be used against you as a witness in court.

As I mentioned, but maybe didn't make entirely clear, part of my job (I work for a law firm that helps defend malpractice suits) is to help prepare nurses for depositions and trial, hence my genuine concern that I wasn't aware of something important to pass on to those I am supposed to be helping.

It was my hope that, based on your experiences, I might be able to help another nurse avoid going thru whatever this bad experience you allude to. I don't know where you thought I might disagree with you, after all, I don't know what happened or the significance of that experience, which is why I asked for clarification. As to taking this discussion down a "different road," I must admit I don't know what the heck you're talking about. Seems the only one willing to diverge from providing specific advice on how to handle a deposition subpoena, or go down that "different road" with unsubstantiated and unwarranted allegations of ulterior motives, is you. Since you list your location as the "nuthouse," you might want to up your medication dosage, your paranoia is showing.

But maybe helping someone else by providing specifics is too much of a "passionate discussion" for you to become involved in. Oh well, after your little tirade, I suspect it wouldn't have been that useful any way.

RN1989 · Sep 27, 2008

+++++

KLKRN, RN · Sep 27, 2008

Where are the moderators? No one should be calling anyone an @ss on this forum. It shows not only a lack of professionalism, and respect for self and others, but anger management problems.

To go to the original question, which I believe should be the focus here, and not name calling and personality conflicts, it is very easy to google "preparing for deposition" into the search engine and come up with some good resources.

You will find, for one thing, that RN 1989 is absolutely correct. You should be careful of your words because they will be used against you by the opposition. A deposition should be treated as seriously as being on the witness stand.

I am personally aware of one instance in which a witness was seen by an attorney taking something out of his pocket, by an attorney, that looked like a pill bottle. When the witness was on the stand he was required to show the courtroom what was in his pocket.

And my last experience with being in court was last week. Attorneys in my experience do suggest you bring nothing to court that you are not asked to because should it come up in conversation, or as in the case of someone seeing it and asking about it, you could well be called on to show it to the court.

Karen L Kelly, RN, LNC

sfsn · Sep 27, 2008

Thanks to everyone that has given me advice so far. I am disappointed that an argument has developed in this thread. That is certainly not what I expected. I just wanted a little support and advice...

I hope people will continue to respond and share their experiences and wisdom, it really does help.

rjflyn, ASN, RN · Sep 27, 2008

That's what one of my coworkers told me.
Have you ever ended up actually having to testify?

No never have. The people have always pled guilty.

Rj

rjflyn, ASN, RN · Sep 27, 2008

Im going to agree with Karen, its an attorney's job to attempt to discredit testimony of everyone on the stand. They do this in numerous ways, and some go to every end and don't stop until their client is free. So no I wouldn't put it past some to have a person at the metal detector watching for what you take out of your pockets on the day of testimony.

Rj

BillEDRN · Sep 28, 2008

Where are the moderators? No one should be calling anyone an @ss on this forum. It shows not only a lack of professionalism, and respect for self and others, but anger management problems.

Ms. Kelly: I apologize if I have offended you with the inferrence of any profanity. I admit that maybe I was inartful in the choice of "that" word to describe the caustic and denigrating response I got from RN1989 to what I intended as a legitimate question on the vague advice given about carrying personal items to court. However, the unprofessional behavior and lack of self-respect clearly started with that reply. And I think that such an unprovoked attack is much more an indication of an anger management problem than my admittedly inartful prose and attempts at pithy comebacks. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I would be interested in your assessment of her response since you seem to feel mine was so inappropriate.

To go to the original question, which I believe should be the focus here....

Exactly what I was trying to do. I will even give RN1989 the benefit of the doubt and state that I am sure that was her intention as well. Unfortunately, her advice on the personal items she alluded to as being possibly problematic, obviously lacked any real value because of the vaugeness. Hence my request for some clarification.

You will find, for one thing, that RN 1989 is absolutely correct. You should be careful of your words because they will be used against you by the opposition. A deposition should be treated as seriously as being on the witness stand.

Correct. If you read my initial post, you will see I agreed with RN1989 and only supplemented it with some additional, specific advice I tend to provide to my clients.

I am personally aware of one instance in which a witness was seen by an attorney taking something out of his pocket, by an attorney, that looked like a pill bottle. When the witness was on the stand he was required to show the courtroom what was in his pocket.

Interesting observation, thank you. The specifics of this example actually make it useful to others. This was what I was asking of RN1989 and instead got some mad drivel about, among other things, trying to take the thread in some other direction.

And my last experience with being in court was last week. Attorneys in my experience do suggest you bring nothing to court that you are not asked to because should it come up in conversation, or as in the case of someone seeing it and asking about it, you could well be called on to show it to the court.

Are you suggesting that some personal items, such as a wallet, purse, personal hygeine supplies, medications, none of which I have ever (nor any of the attorneys I work with and we have 50+ of them) specifically requested my witnesses bring to court, should be left at home? If not these items, are there others you feel are problematic? Do you have some list of suggested items to leave at home? I know I send our witnesses a print out with tips for preparing for a deposition, along with other printed materials because with think it's important to give them something they can take home and review because they so frequently suffer a little information overload in the office. I would think, based on your responses, that same concern exists for these yet undefined personal items. As such, maybe a printed list would be helpful.

And finally, I tend to think that making vague statements such as "bring nothing to court that you are not asked to" is analogous to telling a client not to say anything on the stand that will get them into trouble: It may be true but, the vague nature of the statements does little to help someone unfamilar with the legal process prepare adequately. I tend to view my advice to witnesses much like I view discharge instructions. They need to be given in a manner that best suits the client, and with enough detail to be helpful for that individual's situation. I wouldn't tell the post-op chole patient to follow up with his PCP 'if things don't feel right," but rather specific signs and symptoms of possible obstruction, infection, dehiscence, and pancreatitis.

Aloha

ERbunny · Sep 28, 2008

I hope the original poster will return and let us know how her experience turned out. I have had several subpoenas, have only had to testify twice. Once my testimony helped convict a man who kidnapped and murdered a woman and her three year old daughter. Your careful documentation will stand you in good stead, especially as the events may be "ancient history" by the time it comes to trial. The DA will help put some of your questions to ease. Good luck.

BillEDRN · Sep 30, 2008

Actually, since I am a witness in a case of The People vs the patient, the hospital is not involved and I don't have representation. So when my risk manager found out she didn't really have anything to say about it.

At the very least I would request a copy of the medical records to review and re-familarize yourself with the documentation. While reviewing your charting, you might consider doing so with the info previously provided (sorry I forget who made the post) about documenting the agreement of the patient, location and prep of the draw site, and chain of custody information as a "learning moment" for any future similar situation.

If you really want to push the issue, you could ask to speak to Corporate Counsel if the Risk Manager seems to be dismissing your requests for help/assistence/guidence.

.... I'm just afraid I'm going to get nervous and end up looking stupid, or maybe the defendant's attorney is going to try to press me and try to make me seem incompetent or something.

First, like others have said, it is actually unlikely that you will have to testify at all, but even if so, it is unlikely that the Defense will treat you in that manner for several reasons. First, most Courts (I use this term to include the Judges and/or jury members) tend to look very favorably on nurses, and as such don't view attacks on them in a very good light. The defense knows this and won't want to risk alienating the court any more than absolutely necessary. Second, assuming you didn't do anything really negligent or unprofessional, minor mistakes you may have made in documentation or draw procedures are not likely to be viewed as anything but deminimus or inconsequential. So attacks on your testimony are again more than likley to leave a "bad taste in the mouths" of the Court.

It is common to feel nervous or fear making a mistake during testimony, so don't feel bad. As I said earlier, familarize yourself with the documentation you made, make notes now about any information that may have been ommitted or that you feel may be important and discuss your concerns with an attorney. If for some reason the hospital legal staff aren't helping you, the suggestion to talk to the Prosecuting Attorney is a very good one. They have a vested interest to make sure your testimony is helpful to their case so I'm pretty sure they'll be helpful. You also might ask to what degree their case hinges on your testimony. If the blood draw only proves to be a minor piece of their strategy, it is even more unlikely that you'll even have to testify. And, if you do, equally unlikely the defense is going to be interested in making you look bad. If you get called to testify, try to relax on the stand. Don't feel you have to answer any question immediately and ask for clarification if you don't understand the question. If you need to review the documentation to answer a question, request the opportunity to do so. If you don't know the answer to a question, don't be afraid to say so. Just answer the question and don't try to provide any additional information or rationale unless specifically asked and the Prosecution doesn't object.

As for the personal items brought to court, I think in general the issue was blown out of proportion to your situation. Certainly it would be unwise to bring things that may obviously discredit you to the court (a bottle of psychotropics, a fifth or alcohol, or an inflamatory book or magazine) but routine personal items are very unlikely to cause any problems. As to the examples given previously, I would still like to know the specifics of them. For example, was the person with the pill bottle the witness or the defendant? To wit, it makes a huge difference if he was the defendent on trial for driving under the influence and stated he was not taking any medications. In that case the fact that he was witnessed with medications on his person could possibly impune his prior testimony and thus be relevant to the proceedings. On the other hand, the fact that a witness takes, say thyroid medications, is not germaine to the proceedings and would not be asked about it during proceedings. There is a reason legal analysis of cases are so detail oriented and at the minimum identifies the key players in the defense and prosecution. That is because, as noted above, similar actions of, evidence against, or observations of, those parties affect the proceedings differently. What may be damaging to the defence may not have the same effect for the prosecution. Without that level of specificity it is very difficult to assess the influence of those varibles on the outcome of the trial.

The other thing to remember is that it is likely that the guy you drew blood from is being represented by a public defender. That PD is unlikely to post spys at the metal detector in an attempt to spot questionable items carried by witnesses to his case. It just isn't cost effective. The same holds true even if the defense isn't a PD. Unless the guy you drew is some mega-wealthy big-shot who can afford a private investigator to stand by the entrace waiting for you to pass thru the metal detector, I really doubt anyone is going to be looking at your personal effects as a means to discredit your testimony.

And finally, I apologize if any of my actions detracted from your attempts to seek information about this issue. It was not my intent and had honestly wanted the specifics for my future reference. In general I think most of the advice was accurate. I obviously have some disagreement about some of it, so you are of course welcome to evaluate the logic and rational of my thought as I have tried to presented them and come to the conclusion you feel is most appropriate for you. Good luck.

sfsn · Sep 30, 2008

BillEDRN,

Thank you so much for such a helpful response. I'm sure I'm not the only one who will benefit from it. I have reviewed the chart, and I think I will call the prosecuting attorney's office to get a bit more information. I appreciate you taking the time to give me such detailed advice. I will be rereading your reply in the days leading up to the trial. Hopefully I will not get called anyway. :)