MSN programs??

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · May 23, 2011

With all due respect, you are confusing certification in an advanced practice specialty with floor nursing expertise. There are CNM programs (e.g., Frontier) that admit students who have no labor and delivery experience. There are NP programs that admit students who have never worked on acute care floors. Would you seriously prefer an instructor who had no floor experience but ANP or CNM credentials to an instructor with the appropriate credentials in nursing education who has had relevant floor experience?
You're completely discounting that someone with an MSN in nursing education might have real-life experience on the floor. I did not do an advanced practice specialty because I have no interest in advanced practice nursing. My interest was in nursing education; hence after over eighteen years in a variety of areas, most recently gerontology, I chose a master's in nursing education rather than get a advanced practice specialty that would not fit my career goals.
Again, advanced practice nursing and nursing expertise are NOT the same thing. An advanced practice nurse is educated to fulfill a specific advanced practice role which is far different from the role of a direct care nurse. I think students are better off served by nurse educators who are well-versed in teaching and learning techniques (and, gasp, theories) than by someone with no floor experience but an advanced practice certification.

I'm not confusing squat. You're just not getting what I'm saying. Experience = great. Master's in education, not so. Throw in a master's in an advanced practice area on top of experience, and that's better than great. That's who I want teaching. You could teach with either degree, and you'd only be served with more experience by going through the APN clinicals. I couldn't care less about what some instructor has learned about pedagogy. You could even do that in a series of workshops. It's college. College students should be past group activities, drawing diagrams, sitting in a sem-circle, acting out skits, and coloring. If they're not let them sink or swim. They're supposed to be grown ups.

Moogie · May 24, 2011

I hear you. You could not care less about pedagogy and think that anyone with half a brain and time for a week's worth of seminars can pick it up. You want to be taught by APNs who may or may not have worked bedside for years. You're frustrated at some of the hoops through which you're jumping in your own program, and, frankly, I'd be frustrated too with the skits, sitting in circles, and coloring.

I'm just not sure that you understand, though, that APN clinicals consist of doing patient examinations, making diagnoses and learning how to prescribe medications safely. Those are not responsibilities of bedside nurses. The additional clinical time in an APN program is usually around 700 - 900 hours. That's 17.5-22.5 weeks of full-time work. How does that compare with 5, 10, 15 or more years at the bedside? BTW, many nurse educators, work in the summer to keep up their clinical skills.

Look, you've let your own biases show and so have I. I don't think it's helping the OP very much to read us prattle back and forth. I hope she will read some of the other threads and come to her own conclusion about what is best for HER career.

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · May 24, 2011

You want to be taught by APNs who may or may not have worked bedside for years.
APN clinicals consist of doing patient examinations, making diagnoses and learning how to prescribe medications safely.

Bingo. That's why I want them teaching. Teach what to examine for, teach WHY we're using which medications over others in the same class, teach the prognosis of the condition or disease we're treating. That'd be educational. That's what we're lacking in nursing school, and that's why I'm always in a bad mood about and unsatisfied with nursing education. There isn't enough whys and hows. Heck, even when I took the nursing course of pathophysiology the teacher said "We're gonna keep this simple, simple, and on a basic level." WHY?!?!

Moogie · May 24, 2011

I don't know why your instructor wanted you taught on only a basic level of pathophysiology---unless you were all first semester students and would have additional pathophys content integrated within your other courses. I also don't know the educational background of your instructor. I get the feeling that you think she's teaching pathophys "lite" because of her lack of knowledge. That isn't always necessarily true. Sometimes instructors are told to teach at a more basic level because too many students are failing or complaining about all the work they have to do.

But let's get back to the discussion of knowledge levels of educators. In my NE program, we took six credits of advanced pathophysiology, three credits of advanced health assessment, and I took three credits of advanced pharmacology---the same courses that the APN students took. I've had family nursing and health promotion---again, along with APN students. I can demonstrate a comprehensive assessment of a patient that would be appropriate for the bedside nurse to perform (but I won't teach you deep abdominal palpation as that is a skill for advanced practice nurses). I can tell you about the epidemiology of a disease, its current treatment, its prognosis, and the nursing actions you will need to take to treat that patient. I don't need to have had APN clinicals to do this (although I did do clinicals in my health promotion class---these were community health education projects and ended up being excellent learning experiences.) I had three credits of theory, three credits of research (same as the ANP students) and wrote my master's project on the use of midrange theories to guide non-pharmacological approaches in Alzheimer's disease, focusing on evidence from peer-reviewed literature and reflecting upon my own clinical expertise in dealing with persons with dementia.

If we studied nothing but educational theory and pedagogy in the NE curriculum, it would indeed be a waste. I have seen the curricula of some schools that don't require pathophysiology or pharmacology for the NE track. I've seen some that don't require health assessment. I made sure to choose a school that offered a strong foundation in nursing science because I wanted to be a well-rounded educator, not the one who is flummoxed if a student asks a question about pathophysiology or drug interactions. I don't ever intend to teach pathophys "lite" because of a lack of knowledge (and hope I never am forced to do so because of academic politics).

I certainly hope this has answered the OP's original question. It's been an interesting discussion. ITG, I'm sorry that your program is disappointing. But please don't dismiss all educators with master's in NE as being worthless and incompetent. It's a huge disservice to everyone who has worked hard for this degree and it's a disservice to the OP, who came here to ask a question.

Music in My Heart · May 24, 2011

Predictably, I think I'm with Moogie on this one.

I'd far rather have an excellent teacher with a solid understanding of the material than a subject-matter expert who may or may not be much of a teacher. Through 3.5 degrees, I've had far too many of the latter... very smart PhD types with 5-page CVs and numerous patents but who really had no business in a class room.

Effective teaching is a learned skill; perhaps not necessarily requiring graduate courses in education but I think those are preferred to specialist training. The specialists very often have trouble in explaining the more rudimentary topics of their fields.

To use ITG's example, graduate study of number theory or applied mathematics is far more than is needed to effectively teach geometry. Likewise, doctorate level knowledge of biochemistry is far beyond the basics required for nursing chemistry or pathophysiology.

OP, I'd also recommend a graduate degree in education or at least a generalist MSN... for sure not a CNS - unless, that is, you're hoping to teach CNS students (though a PhD/DNP would be your best bet for that).

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · May 24, 2011

I don't know why your instructor wanted you taught on only a basic level of pathophysiology---unless you were all first semester students and would have additional pathophys content integrated within your other courses. I also don't know the educational background of your instructor. I get the feeling that you think she's teaching pathophys "lite" because of her lack of knowledge. That isn't always necessarily true. Sometimes instructors are told to teach at a more basic level because too many students are failing or complaining about all the work they have to do.
But let's get back to the discussion of knowledge levels of educators. In my NE program, we took six credits of advanced pathophysiology, three credits of advanced health assessment, and I took three credits of advanced pharmacology---the same courses that the APN students took. I've had family nursing and health promotion---again, along with APN students. I can demonstrate a comprehensive assessment of a patient that would be appropriate for the bedside nurse to perform (but I won't teach you deep abdominal palpation as that is a skill for advanced practice nurses). I can tell you about the epidemiology of a disease, its current treatment, its prognosis, and the nursing actions you will need to take to treat that patient. I don't need to have had APN clinicals to do this (although I did do clinicals in my health promotion class---these were community health education projects and ended up being excellent learning experiences.) I had three credits of theory, three credits of research (same as the ANP students) and wrote my master's project on the use of midrange theories to guide non-pharmacological approaches in Alzheimer's disease, focusing on evidence from peer-reviewed literature and reflecting upon my own clinical expertise in dealing with persons with dementia.
If we studied nothing but educational theory and pedagogy in the NE curriculum, it would indeed be a waste. I have seen the curricula of some schools that don't require pathophysiology or pharmacology for the NE track. I've seen some that don't require health assessment. I made sure to choose a school that offered a strong foundation in nursing science because I wanted to be a well-rounded educator, not the one who is flummoxed if a student asks a question about pathophysiology or drug interactions. I don't ever intend to teach pathophys "lite" because of a lack of knowledge (and hope I never am forced to do so because of academic politics).
I certainly hope this has answered the OP's original question. It's been an interesting discussion. ITG, I'm sorry that your program is disappointing. But please don't dismiss all educators with master's in NE as being worthless and incompetent. It's a huge disservice to everyone who has worked hard for this degree and it's a disservice to the OP, who came here to ask a question.

PM coming.