Is the Nursing Shortage Ending?

Sheri257 · Dec 12, 2003

Originally posted by pieWACKet

"Hospital RNs employment and earnings increased sharply in 2002, which suggests that the shortage may be easing."
Oh how woeful the abstract, perhaps. It neglects to mention that nursing salaries US nationwide ERODED [that is, be it not misunderstood, that from the period of the last temporary alleviation of the shortage until the most current expression of the shortage, salaries were each year LESS than the one preceeding] . That RN Employment and earnings have increased does NOT suggest an alleviation of the current Crisis Shortage; it merely implies a delayed response to market demand on the part of the market barterers.

Here's a link to the actual text of the article:

http://www.risnarn.org/Buerhaus%5B1%5D.pdf

The chart on p. 193 does show a big jump in wages from 2001-2002, but it's not very much when you look at the long term trend from 1994, where wages actually decreased in 1997.

Long term, it looks like salaries have been stagnant overall, barely keeping up with inflation.

Sheri257 · Dec 12, 2003

Originally posted by suzanne4
Why is there such a negativity developing about bringing in foreign nurses? I remember working with foreign nurses when I finished school back in the 70's and they were wonderful. And guess what???? Most of them are still working full-time now. If you look at it, foreign nurses do not change your salary, or working conditions. They can actually only help you. Since the new requirements are going into effect within the next six months, foreign nurses will no longer be able to go to the US to work on a temporary visa and with minimal English skills. The new immiagration act requires a Visa Screen be completed by each nurse, which includes English skills almost equal to that of a native-speaker. So, be realistic, how many foreign nurses will immediately fit into that picture?

Interesting point. I'd personally prefer foreign nurses who have to come here and live with the same cost of living, than foreigners who are paid very little in other countries.

Look at the computer industry. Five years ago, those were some of the highest paying jobs around. Now companies routinely export those jobs to India and Asia, where programmers make something like $10,000 year.

At least you can't export a nursing job. I realize that a lot of foreign nurses are paid very little when they first come here. But hopefully they eventually clue into the job market and demand the same wages. I just read about an EEOC case where Filipino nurses had basically done that: suing for RN salaries when they were paid LPN wages or less.

Of course, I could be wrong, and would be interested in hearing other viewpoints.

pieWACKet · Dec 14, 2003

suzanne4 posted " Why is there such a negativity developing about bringing in foreign nurses?..If you look at it, foreign nurses do not change your salary, or working conditions. They can actually only help you."

Liz Responded : "Interesting point. I'd personally prefer foreign nurses who have to come here and live with the same cost of living, than foreigners who are paid very little in other countries....Of course, I could be wrong, and would be interested in hearing other viewpoints."

I started to write a response to this, but realized I was just referring to my webpages where this topic receives a pretty thorough going over. I think it best just to send you to the direct page http://www.cynthiaswope.com/ABedsideRNPerspective/Chapter4NursesandNursing/GlobalShortage.html

Details on what the inducement to immigration does to the home countries, the nurses left in those home countries, and the underlying cause for importation [needed response to challenges allowing the native nurse to flourish and encourage other Americans into the profession] are discussed . The webpages are always evolving and under construction, but this particular topic is pretty much wrapped up there.

suzanne4, RN · Dec 14, 2003

I looked at your website. My approach is not to take nurses from here to send to the US, but for the ones that really do want to go, provide the appropriate training for them. There have been many programs here in the past that just exploit the nurses and make horrendous promises to them, such as go to the US and work as a nursing assistant for three years, then try to work as a nurse. But we all know what happens when you are out of the field for three years. I would presonally like to see them stay here and be available for when I get old and need someone English speaking in the hospitals, but for those who have always wanted to work in the US, my students are actually fulfilling the requirements to apply for a green card and become a resident, NOT go over on a temporary work permit. I had the ability to move to Thailand for my wants, shouldn't others have the same choice? I don't believe in stealing nurses, nor am I trying to. I am not in that business, just education, but I feel that nurses should be able to work wherever and whenever they would like.

I am stressing English and communication skills and opening up a world for them to get a better job, be it here in Bangkok working for a private hospital, or in another country. Even if they just wanted to go to graduate school in the US, I would recommend getting a green card first so that they would at least be able to work part-time. In Australia you can work 20 hours per week as a student, in the US, zero hours. We don't realize how easy we have it by being born in the US, or at least having US citizenship.

Sheri257 · Dec 14, 2003

Originally posted by pieWACKet
I started to write a response to this, but realized I was just referring to my webpages where this topic receives a pretty thorough going over. I think it best just to send you to the direct page http://www.cynthiaswope.com/ABedsideRNPerspective/Chapter4NursesandNursing/GlobalShortage.html

Interesting info. However, even if this phenomenon creates shortages in other countries, I don't see how anyone can fight the economics of it.

As long as U.S. jobs pay better, and companies want to hire them, foreign nurses are probably going to continue to come here, regardless of the consequences in their own countries.

That's just the way the world works.

Sheri257 · Dec 14, 2003

Originally posted by suzanne4
I feel that nurses should be able to work wherever and whenever they would like.

That's why they call it a free country.

I've never had a problem with immigration. As long as they master the English language, as you described, I think it's fine.

live4today, RN · Dec 14, 2003

Originally posted by Agnus
hospitals refusing to hire does not = a shortage of available people for hire.

RNs who refuse to accept working conditions that are offered and therefore refuse to work does not = a shortage of RNs.

The shortage is an artificial one created by the hospitals. If they can convince people there is a shortage then they can pump up things to get more people to become nurses, and bring in foreign nurse and flood the market thus reducing the bargaining power of nurses.

I TOTALLY agree with you Agnus! Thumbs up! I wonder how many nurses are reading and or posting on Allnurses alone who are unemployed for those very reasons. I know that I am one of them. Just the thought of returning to working conditions like that sickens me. And the sad part of it all is that I love being a nurse. I know that I am an excellent nurse........yet "TPTB" cause their own nursing shortage by failing to give a damn about the real reason they are crying they don't have enough nurses. Bull-poopy! If they really want to stop their whining, then they need to look in the mirror at themselves and ask themselves what type of pleasure they are getting out of causing this so called "nursing shortage" that we all know does NOT exist!

live4today, RN · Dec 14, 2003

Originally posted by suzanne4
..............................In Australia you can work 20 hours per week as a student, in the US, zero hours..............

When I was a nursing student in my last clinical, I was hired by a local hospital here to work in a program they established especially for nursing students in their final clinical rotations. I worked 20 hours a week, got paid for it, and upon graduation was offered a higher starting salary because of my senior student nurse work experience at that particular hospital.

pieWACKet · Dec 14, 2003

Several of the responses to the topic and my comments on my referred to pages seem to imply some sort of hostility by me towards the foreign nurse. "That's why they call it a free country" was one comment that stands out, as though I am in absence of that awareness, or in opposition to its implication.

Nothing was said that would imply that foreign nurses seeking to emmigrate are unwelcomed by me...I refer to them as hardworking in the page that commentator perhaps accessed, and know them to be dedicated. Personal choice is highly regarded by me, but I also know that their personal choice is sometimes forced by desperation. Many of them, if able to receive good enough pay, and access to clinics and supplies, might experience a very different response to enticements to leave their home, family, towns and native society for the long haul.[who hasn't worked with a Filippina who describes nursing school and the subsequent need to work in a hospital to gain her experience WITHOUT PAY driving her to consider more forcefully emmigration to any country?]. I happily and with much excited anticipation volunteered for a clinic in Nicaragua, but I am not, unlike the nurses coming to us, forced to leave my family to go live in that or any foreign country for the long term just to earn a reasonable wage and have access to supplies, or even a hut in which to perform my work.

Surely we as nurses are concerned if not for the individuals of foreign nations who are losing nurses to care for them, then at least the ability to control epidemic disease that threaten larger regions.

In support to the entire world's nurses, alternative methods for meeting nursing needs in all nations must be met by changes ocurring in those nations. Many of these countries are VERY, VERY poor. I am suddenly struck by a vision, and although the thought is indeed dreamy, it is worthwhile to consider the good to be derived from the establishment by State Nursing Associations with "sister-nurse" countries in a meaningful, effective and public consciousness raising way. These "Sister-Nurse" arms of the SNAs could meaningfully serve both the nurses and the populations they care for, while it would also advance the perception by the public and others in the health care industry in far more effective positions of lobbying power, of the compassionate, creative and insightful concern given form by each State Nurse Association and in absence of any motivation beyond commitment to nurses and public health.

It would also concretely affect nurses and the populations they serve, inch by inch, 52 countries at a time.

These sister-nurse arms of the SNAs, not unlike the basic concept of Doctors Without Borders or other more nursing based philanthropic entities providing nursing support to specific countries, could involve themselves in economic appeals to their substantial membership, could organize voluntary committes overseeing the collection and shipping of cast-off equipment [think as simply as ALL those inexpensive one time use stethescopes that could EASILY be decontaminated or the small plastic cups used to measure additives to a mixture destined for a patient and never contaminated, merely in need of cleaning[used ALOT in the NICU]. Cast-off drugs [yes drugs] from the entities in which we are employed could be of enormous value [our expiration dates allow a safety period of unfit use occuring before the time when deterioration is bound to occur-to the poor country in need of them, a slightly out of date cast-off drug without loss of potency is WAY better than no drug at all. Thrust could include formation of emmisary support groups sending personnel to help organize, support or train clinic staff. The provision of one computor to a regional nursing center would allow access to the wealth of useful medical/nursing literature available on the web and gee, imagine if direct discussion with those of us speaking of foreign nurses and what it is they needed could occur from a regional center in say, California's sister-nurse country the Philippines: " the stethescopes have been a great help, but we need more portable B/P cuffs for the such and such provincial clinic "

Cool huh?, to think that we could help in that way.

In addition, the "sister-nurse" arm of the State Nursing Association would seek to promote legislative mandate to support the nurses of those countries, as in economic support when directed at a country by our nation to include specific monies earmarked for the nurses and their employment venues there [a needed rural nursing clinic's establishment ie] .

As for America, the supply of foreign nurses is finite, and we can NOT hope to meet our need for nurses from this one impoverished-by-numbers source, no matter how welcoming we as nurses are to them. ONLY by improving the environment [also addressed in my pages and very complex indeed] and earnings [the other alpha factor fueling our shortage receiving much attention there] will we hope to encourage a consistent and uninterrupted supply of new nurses to our ranks, and decrease the recitivism so detrimental to our nation, and our remaining nurses.

Sheri257 · Dec 14, 2003

Originally posted by pieWACKet
"That's why they call it a free country" was one comment that stands out, as though I am in absence of that awareness, or in opposition to its implication. Nothing was said that would imply that foreign nurses seeking to emmigrate are unwelcomed by me...I refer to them as hardworking in the page that commentator perhaps accessed, and know them to be dedicated.

If you reread my comment, you'll notice that I was responding to a direct quote from Suzanne who, I thought, was discussing foreign nurse issues in general.

It wasn't meant to imply anything else.

pieWACKet · Dec 15, 2003

Sorry Liz, that I thought differently. Certainly the concept of free will freely exercised is important to the entire discussion, and the comment important, while my response reflected lack of understanding of your intent.My apologies.

suzanne4, RN · Dec 15, 2003

We keep hearing of foreign nurses flooding the market. I am not sure if most of you are aware that by July, 2004, all health care personnel coming to work in the US will be required to pass English exams that will make them comparable to native-born speakers, except physicians. Not all nurses that want to emigrate to the US have poor working conditions. They actually do more pediatric heart valves here ( in Thailand) because of genetic heart disease. Many CT fellows from the US are actually sent here because of that. Almost any medical procedure that is done in the US is done here in Bangkok. Most of their medical equipment is actually from the US.

I am not pushing for foreign nurses, just that I believe that everyone should have a chance to set their goals and be able to live in a free world if they desire.