I am in hell

Boltthrower · Apr 23, 2006

It concerns me slightly that a few people here, who I assume are RN's with at least some experience under their belt, are calling for standards to be reduced because of the nursing shortage. To me it would seem nothing short of irresponsible for nursing programs to lower their academic/entrance standards because of a shortage in the field. I am not making commentary as to your abilities sundevil, for all I know you could be 100 times more qualified than I am. That is not the issue. I understand the frustration of savagely overworked nurses across the country and also the people trying their best to get into academic programs, but as you all know nursing is a career in which you MUST perform at a certain level or suffer untoward results. I guarantee none of us wants to find ourselves or a family member under the direct care of someone who performed at a substandard level, or who was admitted into an RN program based solely on the idea that we need more nurses.

That being said, I hope you will continue to push forward sundevil and as many have mentioned here perhaps you should try an ASN program from a CC first in order to get into the field and then work for your BSN once you have a job and are experiencing the reality of nursing every day. Good luck in whatever you decide.

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Apr 24, 2006

Sorry to hear you're having such a rough time. There's some great advice here ..... I agree with the others in that you could always look at other options by trying an ADN program and then getting your BSN later down the line. I hope it all works out for you!

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Apr 24, 2006

It concerns me slightly that a few people here, who I assume are RN's with at least some experience under their belt, are calling for standards to be reduced because of the nursing shortage. To me it would seem nothing short of irresponsible for nursing programs to lower their academic/entrance standards because of a shortage in the field. I am not making commentary as to your abilities sundevil, for all I know you could be 100 times more qualified than I am. That is not the issue. I understand the frustration of savagely overworked nurses across the country and also the people trying their best to get into academic programs, but as you all know nursing is a career in which you MUST perform at a certain level or suffer untoward results. I guarantee none of us wants to find ourselves or a family member under the direct care of someone who performed at a substandard level, or who was admitted into an RN program based solely on the idea that we need more nurses.

I disagree with that. Why can't they lower their standards? Is it really necessary that every single person that gets into the program has a perfect 4.0 and they perform perfectly on the entrance exam? In my opinion, no.

I went to an out-of-state BSN program, not because I was trying to get into nursing school, but because I wanted to go to school out of state and I hadn't decided on a major at that time. By the time I decided to go into nursing, I lucked out and was able to get into their nursing program, that didn't have terribly high requirements (private, small university). They just didn't have the high number of applicants because it was in a small town. I didn't have a 4.0. I didn't have to write a perfect essay on why I wanted to become a nurse. I didn't have to jump through all these hoops and break my back. Yet, I still got into the program ...... I passed all my classes ....... I passed the NCLEX ....... and I got a job at a good hospital that I enjoy. I'm still in my first year of nursing, I'm learning all the time. But I'll be a damn good nurse one of these days even though I didn't have a perfect 4.0.

Not everything in nursing school should be based on grades. Yes, nursing is hard work. But you won't make it through school, pass the NCLEX and get through the first year of nursing if you're not cut out to be a nurse. You don't need an application to nursing school to tell you that. IMO.

Boltthrower · Apr 24, 2006

I disagree with that. Why can't they lower their standards? Is it really necessary that every single person that gets into the program has a perfect 4.0 and they perform perfectly on the entrance exam? In my opinion, no.
Not everything in nursing school should be based on grades. Yes, nursing is hard work. But you won't make it through school, pass the NCLEX and get through the first year of nursing if you're not cut out to be a nurse. You don't need an application to nursing school to tell you that. IMO.

I never said anything about getting a 4.0 on everything. I would imagine very few nurses here or in the country got perfect grades in school. BSN programs are GENERALLY very competetive and therefor difficult to get into. It is just the way things are. When you have limited seats you have to choose the best candidates, and thats what they do.

My point was that nursing schools, and other healthcare training facilities have an obligation to the people they serve (the public) to do their best to make sure that the healthcare providers they are cranking out, for lack of a better term, are as prepared as they can be for what they will face on the job. Of course they cant teach you everything, and I'm sure many nurses here with decades of experience still learn new things every day, but the fact remains that if they just say, "hey we need more nurses, let run them through here and get the spots filled" you are asking for trouble.

What you said about someone not being able to get through the school, pass the NCLEX and get through their first year of nursing is probably true for the most part. But the question still remains as to HOW to get those people through all those steps. There are limited numbers of seats on university programs for a reason; thats all they can handle. So when major universities, which for the most part have 30-50 people allowed into their programs per semester or year, receive 500 applications for those positions they have to make a choice..... someone isnt getting in. What criteria should they use to determine the best candidates for those 50 spots? The only tangible evidence as to ones ability to perform on an academic level. Grades, test scores, writing assignments, etc... They use these criteria not to determine how good a nurse you will be, not to guage your level of caring or your all around character. They use them to try to determine how much of the information they will present, you will retain. Its just that simple, and it is harsh because it is not about people, it is about numbers and figures.

Lowering standards is not the way to solve the problem. We need more nursing teachers. We need more RNs who are willing to stick it out and stay in the field. The only way to do that is........ you guessed it $$$$$. Offer full time RNs large incentives to go into teaching to impart their knowledge and to get some of the programs from 30-50 entries per year to maybe 100-200 per year then the playing field would level out somewhat for we non-4.0 students. Granted it would be tough work for them to teach and work, but thats why you would have to pay them well. Have hospitals offer large bonuses for longevity with the system. You have to make it worth the time and trouble for the people who are already IN nursing to assist with the repopulation of the field through their experiences and know how. Thats how the shortage will end, albeit a long way down the road. More nurses trained at the same level is better than more nurses who have essentially been run through "Operation get 'em through".

yellowlablover · Apr 24, 2006

Here is another perspective on this.....I am a little frustrated that the list to get into the MCC system is so long and that it takes up to three semester after you apply to get in. So I am applying to ASU as well....and figure I need to do whatever it takes to increase my odds of acceptance.

The MCC system doesn't provide much of an academic filter, basically anyone with a C average and a 'pass' score on the NET can get in, if they have the time and patience to wait. Then, a fair amount of them wash out in the first and second blocks. Why, you might ask? Because they can't hack the academic requirements, forget the clinicals. This is frustrating to me because the MCC system has set their requirement standards so low, and even recently, lessened the pre-reqs one more time. I really think that does a disservice to everyone, those that are really up to the academic challenge of nursing, as well as those that are, but are relagated to the same 'line' as everyone else. ASU is just the opposite....

BTW - you don't have to have a 4.0 GPA to get in - I am sure most of you know that someone with a 3.2 GPA made it last time. What you do need is to score well in all three areas of the NET and have a decent GPA. A 3.2 isn't that hard to achieve and honestly, a higher score on the math and reading should be very doable if you have done that well in school. The essay is the kicker and my advisor told me that many,many folks didn't answer the question correctly on the last NET exam. Many folks, including one with a 3.8 GPA failed to incorporate the two items that were initially asked into their answer of the basic question. That was the key advise she gave me. BE SURE that you read the question thoroughly and answer ALL parts, or you will get killed on your essay score.

DC

MsBruiser · Apr 24, 2006

I think it is fairly ridiculous that the standars are so low for the MCC system - and that the process is becoming even easier. For example, I can't believe they are doing away with the CNA requirement. Talk about a "filter" for people who don't know if nursing is for them!

yellowlablover · Apr 24, 2006

I think it is fairly ridiculous that the standars are so low for the MCC system - and that the process is becoming even easier. For example, I can't believe they are doing away with the CNA requirement. Talk about a "filter" for people who don't know if nursing is for them!

I am with you brother...... . Not trying to be an elitist but taking out all of the pre-reqs, like nutrition, patho, health related stuff just means that they will have MORE classes to learn and study during those first two blocks, likely driving an even higher failure rate for folks. I understand the colleges trying to get more folks into the system but I think this borders on the ridiculous. :uhoh3:

DC

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Apr 24, 2006

I never said anything about getting a 4.0 on everything. I would imagine very few nurses here or in the country got perfect grades in school. BSN programs are GENERALLY very competetive and therefor difficult to get into. It is just the way things are. When you have limited seats you have to choose the best candidates, and thats what they do.
My point was that nursing schools, and other healthcare training facilities have an obligation to the people they serve (the public) to do their best to make sure that the healthcare providers they are cranking out, for lack of a better term, are as prepared as they can be for what they will face on the job. Of course they cant teach you everything, and I'm sure many nurses here with decades of experience still learn new things every day, but the fact remains that if they just say, "hey we need more nurses, let run them through here and get the spots filled" you are asking for trouble.
What you said about someone not being able to get through the school, pass the NCLEX and get through their first year of nursing is probably true for the most part. But the question still remains as to HOW to get those people through all those steps. There are limited numbers of seats on university programs for a reason; thats all they can handle. So when major universities, which for the most part have 30-50 people allowed into their programs per semester or year, receive 500 applications for those positions they have to make a choice..... someone isnt getting in. What criteria should they use to determine the best candidates for those 50 spots? The only tangible evidence as to ones ability to perform on an academic level. Grades, test scores, writing assignments, etc... They use these criteria not to determine how good a nurse you will be, not to guage your level of caring or your all around character. They use them to try to determine how much of the information they will present, you will retain. Its just that simple, and it is harsh because it is not about people, it is about numbers and figures.
Lowering standards is not the way to solve the problem. We need more nursing teachers. We need more RNs who are willing to stick it out and stay in the field. The only way to do that is........ you guessed it $$$$$. Offer full time RNs large incentives to go into teaching to impart their knowledge and to get some of the programs from 30-50 entries per year to maybe 100-200 per year then the playing field would level out somewhat for we non-4.0 students. Granted it would be tough work for them to teach and work, but thats why you would have to pay them well. Have hospitals offer large bonuses for longevity with the system. You have to make it worth the time and trouble for the people who are already IN nursing to assist with the repopulation of the field through their experiences and know how. Thats how the shortage will end, albeit a long way down the road. More nurses trained at the same level is better than more nurses who have essentially been run through "Operation get 'em through".

I agree that more teachers is the key to this whole problem. I think "lowering the standards" goes hand in hand with this though. There's only so many seats available so of course they're going to take the best of the best, how else will they decide to narrow it down? But it's just too bad that they go based on GPA and, like the previous poster said, an essay answer.

Yes, they need to weed out students so they'll get more of a chance of them making it through the program. But going by GPA or an essay answer is not the way to do it. I saw plenty of 4.0 students not make it in nursing school. Sometimes nursing just isn't for them. I don't know how they should do it though. Throwing out the CNA requirement isn't right though. I agree that that would be a huge filter.

Lots of problems with not many solutions. Makes me glad I'm done with school. Hopefully the goverment will step up, eventually and do something about it. We can only hope.

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Apr 24, 2006

I am with you brother...... . Not trying to be an elitist but taking out all of the pre-reqs, like nutrition, patho, health related stuff just means that they will have MORE classes to learn and study during those first two blocks, likely driving an even higher failure rate for folks. I understand the colleges trying to get more folks into the system but I think this borders on the ridiculous.
DC

I just did a report on this a few weeks back in my trends and issues class. I hate to break it to you, but MCC has better entrance requirements than a lot of other places. In my school in Tucson, there are NO entrance requirements. The city doesn't want to discriminate against any student for any reason (at least that's what my instructors say). So we don't have to be a CNA, don't have to really worry about our GPA (just need a B average in A&P and C in everything else), don't need a NET, and we don't get fingerprinted until we enter school! We finish up our pre-reqs and apply. The app is one page long and pretty standard. Name, address, program of interest, and that's it! As a result, we ending up losing a big chunk of classmates in first semester who weren't able to cut it academically.

Trust me, at least some weeding goes on up there in PHX.

CANewRN · Apr 28, 2006

Well I FINALLY got in!!!!!:balloons: I just took more time to prepare my essay, got the study guide for the net test, and applied with the same GPA as I did before. And I got my first choice (ASU Downtown). If anyone is in the situation I was in, or is going to be applying soon:

1- Get the net study guide and PRACTICE!!!

2- Take a sample of writing to an undergraduate writing advisor and have him/her look it over. The advisors at ASU will refer you to the right person that deals with nursing essays on a regular basis. Honestly, if I hadnt taken this step I doubt I would have gotten in. I am a very good writer -- things like newspaper articles, research papers, etc. However the nursing essay is quite different than that

Good luck

Boltthrower · Apr 28, 2006

Congrats, good luck at ASU.

Curious1alwys, BSN, RN · Apr 28, 2006

That is awesome! :balloons: Good for you!!! :biere: GOOD LUCK! :yeah: :w00t: