How much difference in pay do two year rn's get than four yr??

jml444 · Apr 5, 2008

I was an ADN RN who went back to school for the BSN. I learned absolutely nothing in the BSN program that made a difference to my bedside nursing. Management pushes you to go back to school and get the BSN. They want you to get all of these certifications that they will only pay for the initial test. Recert is out of your pocket as well as the extra CEU's you need to keep your certification active. They do not reward you will a higher wage or even respect. They want the trophy on their wall so they can say....."Our nurses have higher degrees and our nurses are certified." So what? It does not make you a better nurse. Actually, the ADN nurses get more bedside clinical experience than the BSN programs where I live.
My suggestion........if you really want a higher degree go from RN to MSN. That will open a lot more doors than the BSN. It is almost a waste of time unless you are doing it for your own personal satisfaction.
At the facility where I work it doesn't matter what your degree might be. If they want you in a job (personal preferences and who they can get along with or who they can manipulate the easiest) then you will get the job it does not matter what degree you hold. This was evident recently when a management and supervisory position was given to ADN nurses and the nurses with BSN's and supervisory experience were passed up because the person doing the hiring didn't like them. I think that goes on a lot.

Thank you for your reply! You said exactly what I have been hearing- I know ADN programs get a lot more clinical experience around where I live as well!! A friend of mine is doing what you suggested and going for her RN to MSN- that does seem to make a lot more sense. Thanks again!

allaboutthefamily · Apr 5, 2008

This topic is hard to comment on because there are so many feelings involved, I will do my best.

1) BSN staff nurses on average get less than a dollar more (national average) than ADN staff nurses, so if you are in this to make more as a staff nurse alone the extra education doesnt really make sense (monetarily).

2) By defenition a BSN nurse has more education than a ADN nurse, it is what it is. This does not mean a BSN nurse will be a better nurse, or even a smarter nurse, it means they have completed more education.

3) If one were to take every nurse in the united states upon graduation with no prior nursing experience and compare them, the average BSN nurse would be more educated and better prepared to care for a patient, but this difference may or may not be miniscule. Yes you may know incompetent nurses with a BSN...but arguing from a part to a whole is illogical.

4) 20 years later...A ADN staff nurse with 20 years experience and a BSN staff nurse with 18 years experience would be INDISTINGUISHABLE (sp), retention being what it is these things do not matter in the long run. What education you have will be gone in several years and replaced with clinical experience.

5) It should not matter the level of education for promotions and positions in certian areas and hospitals, but it does. The only matter should be the nurses level of expertise, but when you are comparing two cantidates for the same job it looks better on paper to have a four year degree. Its not right, it is what it is.

I am a nursing student in the final straightaway of my BSN progam (with a minor in logic---obviosly), I choose BSN (fast track) because the program I am in will complete the same time as the ADN program I could have entered. I know many people from that ADN program and I do not think I will be a better nurse than them because of my education. That being said, the ADN program in question is one of the most strenuous in the state of california, but my friends are often amazed when I show them the work we have to do. I think in the end it is up to you what kind of nurse you will be. I do not think ADN nurses should feel defensive about such a topic, but I also do not think BSN nurses should feel superior because the degree itself means nothing. I do think that my BSN will show that I have the drive to accomplish something more, but no more than a single mother of three that could only work the ADN program into her schedule. (first five points are a matter of fact BTW- simple logic when taking into account all nurses on average nationwide with no prior nursing experience).

Freedom42 · Apr 5, 2008

"evidence shows that nursing education level is a factor in patient safety and quality of care. as cited in the report when care becomes a burden released by the milbank memorial fund in 2001, two separate studies conducted in 1996 - one by the state of new york and one by the state of texas - clearly show that significantly higher levels of medication errors and procedural violations are committed by nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels as compared with the baccalaureate level. these findings are consistent with findings published in the july/august 2002 issue of nurse educator magazine that references studies conducted in arizona, colorado, louisiana, ohio and tennessee that also found that nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels make the majority of practice-related violations."

milbank memorial fund study

nursemicke · Apr 5, 2008

If BSN is better educated why do they take the same NECLEX as ADN? Hmmm

And, which group scores higher on the test?

bettycat · Apr 5, 2008

The hospital where I work which is one of the Cleveland Clinic hospitals only pays more if the job requires the degree. So all bedside nurses are paid the same. I have a BSN, I had an ASN and went back to school just for my own satisfaction, not for more money. I work with a MSN who is making less money then myself. The hospital I work for pays by experience.

allaboutthefamily · Apr 5, 2008

"If BSN is better educated why do they take the same NECLEX as ADN? Hmmm. And, which group scores higher on the test? "

1) The "NCLEX", not neclex, is a minimum competancy exam whose purpose is to protect the public at large. BSNs are not held to a higher "minimum standard". (Reference: Legal Nursing Course).

2) No one technically "scores higher" on the NCLEX exam as it is designed to be a pass fail exam, and scores are not distributed. You may be alluding to the fact that some CC have higher NCLEX pass rates, which is honestly not a very strong statistic given that BSN programs have a much higher percentage of students finish thier program.

3) I think this is a silly argument, BSNs have more education, period. There is no reason to draw further conclusions than this. If anything use evidenced based nursing like the gentleman above, studies that show differences in practice. Also, regarding the study mentioned above, I do not believe that the education level of the ADN nurse neccecarily makes them prone to med errors and other mistakes, but I do think the type of person that would like to finish things quickly and cut corners may be more drawn to the shorter program, thus the difference in med errors between BSN and ADN. I AM NOT saying that ADN nurses cut corners or are lazy, I am just saying the shorter program would be more alluring to someone with that type of personality.

Freedom42 · Apr 5, 2008

If BSN is better educated why do they take the same NECLEX as ADN? Hmmm
And, which group scores higher on the test?

As one poster has already noted, the NCLEX is only one indicator of minimum competency. Of course you would expect most candidates to pass (although, according to the organization that develops the test, most of those who pass only answer about 50 percent of the questions correctly). It's also important to note that the test does not measure all of the skills or knowledge taught at the baccalaureate level.

But since nursemicke asked, here are the 2007 pass rates for first-time NCLEX takers by educational level:

Diploma 87.9 percent

BSN 86.4 percent

ADN 84.8 percent

jml444 · Apr 5, 2008

Originally posted by "Allaboutthefamily

"Also, regarding the study mentioned above, I do not believe that the education level of the ADN nurse neccecarily makes them prone to med errors and other mistakes, but I do think the type of person that would like to finish things quickly and cut corners may be more drawn to the shorter program, thus the difference in med errors between BSN and ADN."

I think you mean necessarily, not, "neccecarily". That is the most ridiculously ignorant comment I think I have ever heard!! It does not even warrant more of a comment than that!!!

RNfor26 · Apr 5, 2008

Yes, you are right in that the BSN RN has more education. I was required to take another Math class, 2 English writing classes, 9 credits of Humanities.......I could go on and on. More than half of the required classes were of this type. The nursing courses focus primarily on Public Health and Management. Neither of these have anything to do with being a floor nurse.

Could those of you correcting others spelling and grammar errors please stop. It is really very annoying and it is unnecessary to be so condescending!

jml444 · Apr 6, 2008

Yes, you are right in that the BSN RN has more education. I was required to take another Math class, 2 English writing classes, 9 credits of Humanities.......I could go on and on. More than half of the required classes were of this type. The nursing courses focus primarily on Public Health and Management. Neither of these have anything to do with being a floor nurse.
Could those of you correcting others spelling and grammar errors please stop. It is really very annoying and it is unnecessary to be so condescending!

I agree, I wouldn't normally correct anyone's spelling, but was responding to "allboutfamily's" post, in which along with her condescending attitute, corrected someone else's spelling of NCLEX (which was obviously just a typo) - I thought, if she is going to have this high and might attitute about her education, and correct other people, she should know that his/her spelling isn't so hot either!!

allaboutthefamily · Apr 6, 2008

What would you find ridiculous about it? It is a proven fact that ADNs make more errors than BSN trained nurses, I was merely defending the ADN level of education by saying that I do not believe it to be inferior. It is viewed as "easier" and "quicker" by many students looking to go into nursing, and therefore there is a chance that it could draw more undesirable characters. Are you saying that it is the level of education that makes ADN schooled nurses more prone to med errors? Or perhaps you could offer your own explanation. I mean aside from saying, "It does not even warrant more of a comment than that!!!". My spelling is horrible, always has been, and I was honestly doing nothing more than poking fun at the spelling so it is defenitely fair game to tease me.

As far as the "extra classes", the best way I can explain the BSN program, or any Bachelors degree program, is that you take classes that do not "seem" to be directly related, but in the end they are. They offer you different perspectives and problem solving abilities, they help you to communicate better, and they excersise your brain if nothing else. If you go into these classes with a good attitude and willing to learn they are valuable, IMO.

allaboutthefamily · Apr 6, 2008

I honestly do not know what courses a ADN takes to graduate as opposed to BSN. If I am not mistaken the clinical hours are identical (at least in CA) for both paths. What I do know is that I had originally planned to attend a ADN program and I only had to take an extra course in Chemistry to make up the difference. One course that I had to take for either was my general education class, specifically political science. Do I think this course made me a better nurse? Absolutely! The teacher was wonderful and he gave me a new perspective on the world, I became more open minded as a result of this class. I cannot say that I have ever had a class tht did not make me a better person, and nurse. I can also say that if I had went on to get my ADN I feel I would have been just as good of a nurse, because I would have been proactive and taken this extra time to expand my horizons as opposed to sitting in a lecture class. But, I do not know if this would be true of all nurses. This whole debate is petty, and what is more petty is that you assume I feel I am superior to ADN educated nurses in some way. These are your own insecurities, you can be the best nurse in the world if you want to, regardless of where you went to school. Get over it.