Serious question-how do you explain the DNP to the average layperson?
I'm not a NP (MSN-Ed) and I am currently in an education and leadership focused DNP program. I work in nursing education and am excited about the knowledge and opportunities that my advanced studies will bring. While still evolving (and rightly so), I believe that having a terminal practice degree is a great step for nursing. My question, though, is how do you explain what this means to the layperson? I thought I knew, until this week, when I attempted to explain it to my mother-in law. She asked how school was going and then said, "So...are you going to be an NP now?" I offered that it expanded my current skills and knowledge, as well as opportunities for leadership and faculty positions. She just seemed baffled that if it wasn't "seeing patients", what was it? I also made the parallel to the PhD, but pointed out the difference. It was a pretty short conversation as she lost interest quickly...
So, how do you explain the DNP to your friends and family; especially if you are considered part of the educated but non-advanced practice group?
AndersRN, what exactly is your background? I am having difficulty believing that you are even an RN. Every post that you have made is denigrating the DNP and APRNs in general. Since you profess not to have a DNP or are an APRN what exactly gives you this great insight into the curriculum or profession of APRNs or DNPs. Are you claiming to be an expert based on reading the nursing school webpages showing the curriculums of APRNs and DNPs?..
The idea for APRNs is to provide efficient, safe, cost-effective care working with and/or without physicians in the healthcare system. There isn't one APRN school or APRN association that advocates the removal/replacement of physicians.
A little history lesson: Anesthesiologists have been seeking to supplant CRNAs not the other way around. CRNAs have been an organized profession a lot longer than MDAs.
AndersRN why don't you post research that shows inferior care by APRNs when compared to physicians surely this should be easy since the AMA and ASA are two of the best funded PACs in United States.
According to another NP vs. MD thread started recently (and, I believe, has been removed), Anders claims to be an NP student, or will be soon. I think??? The way that thread evolved, no way Anders actually is a nurse at all.
According to another NP vs. MD thread started recently (and, I believe, has been removed), Anders claims to be an NP student, or will be soon. I think??? The way that thread evolved, no way Anders actually is a nurse at all.
There are 2-3 in these APRN threads who are blatantly trolls with seemingly no formal education, let alone professional nurses. One of them even has the gall to put "np" in his username. Every post they make is derogatory and insulting to nurses and APRN's. It's laughable the things they say and how quickly the discussion devolves when they're involved. Hopefully now that multiple people have noticed the mods will ban them or maybe they'll get bored and move on to another website to harass.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
In 10 or 15 years all the pediatricians, OBGYN, family practice, hospitalists, almost all anesthesia etc will be provided by APRN's with a DNP and it will cost patients half the cost of todays medical expense. .
Do you still feel this way now that advanced practice nursing is busy dramatically increasing the cost of producing a nurse practitioner, while medical school are busy greatly reducing the cost to become a physician?
Today the number of years of post secondary education required to produce a new grad NP is about, or exactly the same as the number of years it takes to produce a resident physician, that is about 7 years. Four years of under grad and 3 years of professional grad school.
Do you still feel this way now that advanced practice nursing is busy dramatically increasing the cost of producing a nurse practitioner, while medical school are busy greatly reducing the cost to become a physician?
Today the number of years of post secondary education required to produce a new grad NP is about, or exactly the same as the number of years it takes to produce a resident physician, that is about 7 years. Four years of under grad and 3 years of professional grad school.
I think 7 years (not including clinical experience as an RN) and a DNP is an adequate request for a CRNP. Although I also think that $100,000 should be the typical pay for a CRNP. I know some that make that pay and others who accept salary for less.
This is all just opinion though, conversation for the sake of conversation. My opinion won't change the direction of the medical field. The educational requirements and cost for CRNP's and MD's or the salaries of either.
Do you still feel this way now that advanced practice nursing is busy dramatically increasing the cost of producing a nurse practitioner, while medical school are busy greatly reducing the cost to become a physician?
Today the number of years of post secondary education required to produce a new grad NP is about, or exactly the same as the number of years it takes to produce a resident physician, that is about 7 years. Four years of under grad and 3 years of professional grad school.
Medical and physician residency is highly subsidized by federal and states monies. Little of APRN education in comparison is paid for out of state and federal monies. It takes about 1 million to train an anesthesiologist. It takes 30k-100k to train an APRN not counting living expenses while going to school, and most of that is paid for by the student themselves.
As long as type of difference in funding APRN and physician education exists it APRNs will still be the most cost effective healthcare provider when compared with physicians.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Medical and physician residency is highly subsidized by federal and states monies. Little of APRN education in comparison is paid for out of state and federal monies. It takes about 1 million to train an anesthesiologist. It takes 30k-100k to train an APRN not counting living expenses while going to school, and most of that is paid for by the student themselves.
As long as type of difference in funding APRN and physician education exists it APRNs will still be the most cost effective healthcare provider when compared with physicians.
I understand what you are saying. Sorry I wasn't clear. The expense I was referring to is the expense incurred by the provider. Advanced practice nursing and medicine are rapidly meeting in the middle in this regard.
It seems logical that those who must invest more into their preparation will expect / need more in compensation.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I think 7 years (not including clinical experience as an RN) and a DNP is an adequate request for a CRNP. Although I also think that $100,000 should be the typical pay for a CRNP. I know some that make that pay and others who accept salary for less.
This is all just opinion though, conversation for the sake of conversation. My opinion won't change the direction of the medical field. The educational requirements and cost for CRNP's and MD's or the salaries of either.
I think these discussion do have a great impact on how at least some people make decisions about their own career path. Agree they will have little to no impact on the direction of the medical field. Although you never know when someone who's opinions and views have been impacted by these discussion may end up in a leadership position in the future.
I very much disagree that $100K is adequate compensation for an advanced practice nurse. Regular staff RNs with 10 or so years experience make that or more in my area and I live in the Midwest.
It's already the case that my friends who go on to become NPs are doing it for lifestyle and schedule reasons and not for money since they won't start off making more as an NP, may in fact take a pay cut to do it, at least to start with.
The calculation is 100K/year as a staff RN with an associates or bachelors degree that can be obtained in 2-4 years and can cost as little as $8K plus living expenses, but working every other holiday, nights and many weekends, or 7-8 years of college education, three to four of those paying doctorate level tuition for nearly the same money but no nights or holidays.
I understand what you are saying. Sorry I wasn't clear. The expense I was referring to is the expense incurred by the provider. Advanced practice nursing and medicine are rapidly meeting in the middle in this regard.
It seems logical that those who must invest more into their preparation will expect / need more in compensation.
Yes, but physicians only pay for part of their medical school after that CMS covers most or all of residents salary.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Yes, but physicians only pay for part of their medical school after that CMS covers most or all of residents salary.
Ya I know that but it doesn't matter to the point I am making. When one is look at the investment they must personally make in time and money into a career path what matters is how much that individual most invest vs the pay back. We all know of medical school grads who graduate with a quarter million or more in debt and are forced into specialty practice to pay it back. Many can't afford to become primary care physicians. We all expect that (usually) a physician will make more than an NP. The NP has been able to accept lower compensation because they invested less in their preparation. Historically and undergrad degree and two years of grad school. Now that that same grads school is being increased to 3 or even 4 years, and medical school is being shortened (in at least some programs) to 3 years, the calculation will be different that it was in the past.
5 years ago I attended an information day for a small, private Catholic college's masters level FNP program. One of the attendees asked if there were plans in the future to make the current MSN FNP program into a DNP. The speaker was adamant that they would never do that. First that college doesn't currently grant any doctorate level degrees. Her main point was that the FNP was supposed to be a cost effective provider of high quality health care. The school's mission included service to poor and underserved populations. They see keeping the cost of producing a provider lower as one of the keys to their mission. She also said that if at some future date a DNP was mandated that the school was considering scrapping it's NP program and starting a PA program instead. I know some things have changes since then but I appreciated her point.
Ya I know that but it doesn't matter to the point I am making. When one is look at the investment they must personally make in time and money into a career path what matters is how much that individual most invest vs the pay back. We all know of medical school grads who graduate with a quarter million or more in debt and are forced into specialty practice to pay it back. Many can't afford to become primary care physicians. We all expect that (usually) a physician will make more than an NP. The NP has been able to accept lower compensation because they invested less in their preparation. Historically and undergrad degree and two years of grad school. Now that that same grads school is being increased to 3 or even 4 years, and medical school is being shortened (in at least some programs) to 3 years, the calculation will be different that it was in the past.
5 years ago I attended an information day for a small, private Catholic college's masters level FNP program. One of the attendees asked if there were plans in the future to make the current MSN FNP program into a DNP. The speaker was adamant that they would never do that. First that college doesn't currently grant any doctorate level degrees. Her main point was that the FNP was supposed to be a cost effective provider of high quality health care. The school's mission included service to poor and underserved populations. They see keeping the cost of producing a provider lower as one of the keys to their mission. She also said that if at some future date a DNP was mandated that the school was considering scrapping it's NP program and starting a PA program instead. I know some things have changes since then but I appreciated her point.
Trying to compare costs between APRN school and medical school will never be a fair comparison since medical school and residency are highly subsidized, physicians in general make more than most APRNs, and if they choose to physicians have a larger number of ways to have their debt forgiven.
APRNs are mainly self supported (I understand this is the crux of your argument), but in most APRN programs APRN students can and do continue to work full time off setting a lot of the expense of going to school.
The cost is almost solely on the APRN not the healthcare system so it has little to no effect on the cost of healthcare if a couple of semesters are added to an APRN program. The only way the DNP is going to effect the cost of healthcare is if the market of APRNs decrease either through toughening of requirements or the cost of attending becomes too cost prohibitive for most nurses. The only other option is if APRNs formed a large enough union to demand larger salaries, which would be double edged sword.
AndersRN, what exactly is your background? I am having difficulty believing that you are even an RN. Every post that you have made is denigrating the DNP and APRNs in general. Since you profess not to have a DNP or are an APRN what exactly gives you this great insight into the curriculum or profession of APRNs or DNPs. Are you claiming to be an expert based on reading the nursing school webpages showing the curriculums of APRNs and DNPs?..
The idea for APRNs is to provide efficient, safe, cost-effective care working with and/or without physicians in the healthcare system. There isn't one APRN school or APRN association that advocates the removal/replacement of physicians.
A little history lesson: Anesthesiologists have been seeking to supplant CRNAs not the other way around. CRNAs have been an organized profession a lot longer than MDAs.
AndersRN why don't you post research that shows inferior care by APRNs when compared to physicians surely this should be easy since the AMA and ASA are two of the best funded PACs in United States.
Such study is difficult to design in the first place... Claiming that there is equal outcome when HTN, DM are managed by NP vs. MD to imply that MD/DO = NP is ludicrous...
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Such study is difficult to design in the first place... Claiming that there is equal outcome when HTN, DM are managed by NP vs. MD to imply that MD/DO = NP is ludicrous...
You know that as a CRNA... Seriously!
Why is it ludicrous to assume that an MD/DO would be better at managing chronic conditions than an NP? They are both going to be using the same standard of care and care plan. Management of those conditions is well understood.
When I see patients who are in acute distress because their chronic condition is not managed it doesn't seem to matter if the provider I am getting orders from is an NP, PA or MD/DO, the orders always seem be the same with chronic conditions.
ixchel
4,547 Posts
According to another NP vs. MD thread started recently (and, I believe, has been removed), Anders claims to be an NP student, or will be soon. I think??? The way that thread evolved, no way Anders actually is a nurse at all.