Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
OP's belief is based on taxation being the equivalent of theft. Well, not paying taxes is a crime. People who live in a country tacitly agree to pay taxes as a condition of living there and in exchange for certain government services. It is part of the social contract for that nation. OP - I don't know how it works in Canada, but if you come to the USA and do not pay taxes, you can go to jail. A lot of people believe the earth is flat, but that doesn't make it so.
I pay taxes here in Canada, some of that goes to health care... doesn't mean I can't lobby for change, vote, and disagree with how things are.
Lot's of people think health care is a right, doesn't make it one either.
Question @shibaowner, by "social justice" (I think you've mentioned this a couple times?), are you referring to identity politics?
If so, what does that have to do with nursing?
In nursing, social justice goes hand in hand with equity. We must care for everyone. Furthermore, nursing has public health components and a wholistic view which requires considering social, cultural, and economic influences on individual and public health. I am really surprised you chose nursing without doing any research into nursing values.
In nursing, social justice goes hand in hand with equity. We must care for everyone. Furthermore, nursing has public health components and a wholistic view which requires considering social, cultural, and economic influences on individual and public health. I am really surprised you chose nursing without doing any research into nursing values.
I would argue justice goes hand in hand with equity. That is a debate for another thread though. Either way, I value equality. Just wanted to know your stance is all.
I see you have edited your original post. You called me out for not having "RN" behind my name.
So let me enlighten you. I have a BA, and completed PN course of two years (the requirement in Canada) which was the old RN programme before the BScN became entry level for Canadian RNs. I also hold advanced certifications in three specialty areas, completing the same course work and exams as the RNs in the class.
I notice that you have never told us what education you have. I mean for all we know you could be a very qualified office manager.
I've worked in bariatrics and several other areas. I have colleagues in the Bariatric programme that do the initial assessments for candidate suitability. In 15 years of acute care, I've never had a bariatric patient that had Cushings. They've had multiple co-morbidities ranging from being bed bound, diabetic, and abuse survivors. Heck, by the BMA chart, I'm considered obese, but would never go the bariatric route.
Post op complications? Well, let's see, you fly into a country, have surgery and leave as soon as possible to avoid hotel fees, etc , because you want it done as cheaply as possible. No physio and barely a post op exam. I truly feel that the patient should pay the costs. I remember well one case that went to India, lived with relatives in the countryside to save money and brought home a truly nasty infection, the wound was weeping on the flight home and went straight to emergency. Why not have it looked at locally before the flight? Well, Canada's health care is free! That's what the family told emerg.
So, please feel free to enlighten us to your qualifications to be taking part in this discussion? At least the OP was polite enough to admit he's just starting as a nursing student.
Sorry but
1. Your statements were highly insensitive to obese people. This is against nursing principles, I guess you didn't learn sensitivity in all those years of education. I gave you the benefit of the doubt if you were a student with this perspective, because I don't know how a seasoned nurse with graduate education could have an attitude like that.
2. You completely ignored the points I made about social responsibility concerning the obesity epidemic, which are also backed by nursing and human development.
4. That's strange, I have worked with bariatrics on a surgical floors. Not much time there but a few did in fact have had history of Cushings. Not many, but there are a million comorbities for obesity. Cushings was just an example of an illness that can cause obesity, but there are a ridiculous amount other illnesses that could lead to it, including mental illness. Even if there wasn't a direct cause of obesity in patient, it's universally agreed that obesity is a problem of culture and "nuture", like I said.
3. I don't think that flying in/out of the country is the best practice in healthcare. I think that is best reserved for cases like someone who needs a specialist who is not in their country. Very specific complicated cases. So this I agree with. Even medical tourism that's controlled like some plastic surgery centers do have issues with naive pts getting poor care and no follow up. But I don't think it's this insanely big problem as you suggest with your example. Sounds more like isolate incidents, and loopholes. If you had numbers, that would be of interest. If it's something worth noting, is that people make all kinds of poor impulsive choices about healthcare. Even if a person injures themself, they are still entitled to healthcare. Doesn't a person have to be a citizen of Canada to have Healthcare priveledges? How about residency minimum? I have to say I know little about Canada. My experience is only with US. In US you can't recieve Emergent care free as stated in EMTALA, but if you are not a citizen you cannot have medicaid.
4. I made several other point about the knee surgery/hip surgery arguments. I am assuming you didn't respond because you were specifically talking about tourism?
5. You did bring up that I don't have my education or title on my name. Since that doesn't automatically make what I say credible or not, why don't you focus on the content of my very long post. You should have enough education to know if my statements are correct or not. Then we can talk about my life story, and all my "office managing" experience.
You are so ignorant of healthcare systems and how they work. Instead of spending time on pointless arguments, spend your time studying healthcare organizations and economics. In a national health insurance system like Canada's or Great Britain's, certain types of healthcare are rationed by waiting time. In the U.S., because we do not have universal healthcare, care is rationed by pricing and insurance. This is because no country has infinite healthcare resources. Yes, some Canadians fly to the US for procedures. Some Americans fly to Singapore because some procedures are cheaper there. Both systems use rationing, but different types of rationing. From a moral perspective, most of us believe universal healthcare is more equitable, as all human lives are worth the same.
This is exactly it. It is fundamentally immoral to deny healthcare to a large group of people because a very small group make naive or selfish choices. I think as nurses we are obligated to side with whatever leaves the least amount of vulnerable people out
Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
I'm going to go back to your original argument. You just won't respond to any pointed questions or objections. Also, you seem to feel you set the rules. Well, you don't. We don't accept your rules.
1. Why is it fallacious to consider status or authority? Status and authority must be considered. "Expert opinion" is a level of evidence. A lower level, but evidence nonetheless. Let's take a look at what we know about you. You say you have spent most of your life living below the poverty level. You also have a wife and family and you are also in school now. So, I'm pretty sure you have consumed public goods and benefits. If you really wanted to put your money where your mouth is, you would not accept any health benefits, because you stated it is immoral. Have you, your wife, or your children ever received healthcare? Did you pay for it. If you did not, you are a hypocrite and therefore, why should we take you seriously? You are not credible.
In addition, good argumentation requires supporting evidence. You provide none. In nursing school, when you take classes on ethics and nursing theory, you must provide evidence.
2. Healthcare is not a right because it requires other people's money - you don't have the right to others' money.
How on earth is this a logical argument? If we take this argument to it's logical extension, then taxation is illegal. Good luck with telling Revenue Canada or the IRS that.
3. What about those in need of healthcare?
There are not enough charitable organizations and so forth to provide for all those in need.
4. If healthcare is a right, it's immoral . . .
One does not have to be a socialist to believe in universal healthcare. The nursing and medical professions now recognize healthcare as a human right. The majority of nurses and doctors are not socialists. Also, see #2 - taxation is not recognized as theft except by fringe lunatics who risk jail if they practice what they preach.
Even conservatives are viewing healthcare as a right. I am a conservative. Dr. Charles Krauthammer, an MD and prominent conservative acknowledges attitudes on this have changed.
5. Citizens should have access to services they are taxed for.
Well, theoretically they do. We don't have an ala carte approach to taxation where people can choose to pay only certain taxes. All public services are available to citizens as needed. I don't have children, but I pay property taxes to support the public schools. However, if I did have a child in the future, the public schools would be available to me. I am strongly opposed to foreign military interventions, but I still have to pay my taxes.
6. When is healthcare a right? When I pay for it.
Really? People in the USA have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We don't "pay" for those rights. And if you argue we do pay via taxes, then healthcare is certainly pretty important to life and the pursuit of happiness.
7. Who is responsible to care for me?
No one is arguing that a person shouldn't care for themselves when possible. Universal healthcare isn't free. Depending on the model, it is paid for through taxes and/or insurance premiums. However, the destitute do not pay taxes and can't afford premiums.
8. Of course, the exception is people who can't care for themselves.
Why? If you are a libertarian, that does not follow. You state healthcare must be paid for. Therefore, those who cannot pay go without.
9. Why do people find this topic objectionable?
Because it is against core nursing values and ethics. In addition, while in the USA we have freedom of speech, we also have to face consequences when raising controversial topics. Topics like abortion are incendiary. When you attack a core tenet of modern nursing practice, some people are going to be offended. Stay out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.
10. Why won't you respond to any counter arguments?
You don't go through arguments point by point. I guess you can't defend your own position. It is your belief that is immoral. YOU LOSE.
I'm going to go back to your original argument. You just won't respond to any pointed questions or objections. Also, you seem to feel you set the rules. Well, you don't. We don't accept your rules.
1. Why is it fallacious to consider status or authority? Status and authority must be considered. "Expert opinion" is a level of evidence. A lower level, but evidence nonetheless. Let's take a look at what we know about you. You say you have spent most of your life living below the poverty level. You also have a wife and family and you are also in school now. So, I'm pretty sure you have consumed public goods and benefits. If you really wanted to put your money where your mouth is, you would not accept any health benefits, because you stated it is immoral. Have you, your wife, or your children ever received healthcare? Did you pay for it. If you did not, you are a hypocrite and therefore, why should we take you seriously? You are not credible.
In addition, good argumentation requires supporting evidence. You provide none. In nursing school, when you take classes on ethics and nursing theory, you must provide evidence.
2. Healthcare is not a right because it requires other people's money - you don't have the right to others' money.
How on earth is this a logical argument? If we take this argument to it's logical extension, then taxation is illegal. Good luck with telling Revenue Canada or the IRS that.
3. What about those in need of healthcare?
There are not enough charitable organizations and so forth to provide for all those in need.
4. If healthcare is a right, it's immoral . . .
One does not have to be a socialist to believe in universal healthcare. The nursing and medical professions now recognize healthcare as a human right. The majority of nurses and doctors are not socialists. Also, see #2 - taxation is not recognized as theft except by fringe lunatics who risk jail if they practice what they preach.
Even conservatives are viewing healthcare as a right. I am a conservative. Dr. Charles Krauthammer, an MD and prominent conservative acknowledges attitudes on this have changed.
5. Citizens should have access to services they are taxed for.
Well, theoretically they do. We don't have an ala carte approach to taxation where people can choose to pay only certain taxes. All public services are available to citizens as needed. I don't have children, but I pay property taxes to support the public schools. However, if I did have a child in the future, the public schools would be available to me. I am strongly opposed to foreign military interventions, but I still have to pay my taxes.
6. When is healthcare a right? When I pay for it.
Really? People in the USA have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We don't "pay" for those rights. And if you argue we do pay via taxes, then healthcare is certainly pretty important to life and the pursuit of happiness.
7. Who is responsible to care for me?
No one is arguing that a person shouldn't care for themselves when possible. Universal healthcare isn't free. Depending on the model, it is paid for through taxes and/or insurance premiums. However, the destitute do not pay taxes and can't afford premiums.
8. Of course, the exception is people who can't care for themselves.
Why? If you are a libertarian, that does not follow. You state healthcare must be paid for. Therefore, those who cannot pay go without.
9. Why do people find this topic objectionable?
Because it is against core nursing values and ethics. In addition, while in the USA we have freedom of speech, we also have to face consequences when raising controversial topics. Topics like abortion are incendiary. When you attack a core tenet of modern nursing practice, some people are going to be offended. Stay out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.
10. Why won't you respond to any counter arguments?
You don't go through arguments point by point. I guess you can't defend your own position. It is your belief that is immoral. YOU LOSE.
I've dealt with the majority of these arguments at some point or another in this thread... I mean jeepers, it's 25 pages long. Not to sure what you mean by "point by point" specifically, but I did respond to you in the manner I'm guessing you're looking for a half hour ago:
Well I don't make money doing it, so that's most likely very accurate.
Yes I have the burden of proof, but not for the reason you stated. I've already stated, just because "the majority of developed countries believe that it is", does not make it a right. That's a fallacy known as argumentum ad populum.
Since I do have the burden of proof though, I laid out the following argument:
1) Fundamental human rights are not dependent on the actions of others.
2) Health care is dependent on the actions of others.
3) Therefore, health care is not a fundamental human right.
Of course I did, you just didn't read the thread. I made a distinction between fundamental human rights (or natural rights) as being negative rights, and health care as a positive right.
Well, I've never really had an actual objection other than "I disagree with the first premise". I mean... okay, that doesn't really make the initial premise wrong though.
Of course that's the purpose of argumentation. Don't know what your point is here though.
I'm sorry if I missed it, what follows is the privatization of health care.
Cool.
Stating I don't know the answer to something means I'm trying to "weasel out of it"? Am I expected to be omniscient or something?
OP - you just don't get it. You are basing your argument on a belief in Libertarianism. That only works when arguing against other Libertarians.
As for fundamental rights only being negative rights -
1. Wikipedia will not be an acceptable source of evidence in nursing school. I'm surprised you do not know this, being a professional student.
2. The Wikipedia article you cited says this is what Libertarians believe. Most nurses are not Libertarians. So we don't accept your premise. Why should we? There is a lot about Libertarianism that I find morally repugnant.
You evidently are ok with the current nursing values and ethics. Well, your belief is not in agreement. As a nurse, how are you going to reconcile this? Are you only going to treat patients that can pay?
You say what follows from your belief is privatization of healthcare. OK, how would that work? Can you gives us one example of a successful healthcare system along these lines? Or can you give us your idea on what such a successful system might look like? I'm all ears (or eyes in this case).
And you have tried to backpedal on your beliefs when uncomfortable aspects are discussed. Either you are a Libertarian or you are not.
It is up to you to educate yourself on healthcare systems and economics. What are the different models for healthcare systems? What are some common models in the developed world? I completed a 2 year executive education program at UCLA in addition to my nursing studies. It is painfully obvious you are ignorant about this area. There is a lot of information out there, so it is on you to become knowledgeable if you want to debate this.
I don't know what nursing school is like in Canada. Here in the US, we have a public health rotation and I strongly advise you to seek a clinical rotation with an underserved community, like the inner city. It will be a real eye opener. In addition, many MSN rotations involve working with underserved communities. As an NP student in Baltimore, I never worried about whether or not the patient could pay. I only cared about doing the best for the patient. If they couldn't pay for their meds or referrals, I worked with them to help them find assistance and resources.
Here are some sources for your nursing ethics study:
American Nurses Association (2015). Code of ethics for nurses with interpretive
statements. The Association, Washington, DC
Morrison, E. E., & Furlong, B. (2014). Health care ethics critical issues for the 21st
I pay taxes here in Canada, some of that goes to health care... doesn't mean I can't lobby for change, vote, and disagree with how things are..
No one is saying you can't. But you don't offer any solutions, either. And "privatized healthcare" is not a solution. You need to have an actual model in mind that you can argue for. What do you want to do? Let's say Canada did away with their healthcare system? Then what? How would privatized healthcare work in your vision?
Debating this is not changing anyone's mind. Nurses must embrace nursing ethics and values in order to provide compassionate and appropriate care. In addition, in order to get through nursing school, nurses must be able to relate care measures to nursing ethics and values. A nurse that does not believe healthcare is a right is going to have trouble with this.
What are nursing values? I'm going to quote some sources, and I have provided the links:
"Nurses as one of the health service providers and members in health system who are responsible for giving care to the clients and patients based on ethical issues.[1] They need ethical knowledge to conduct their appropriate function to manage situations and to give safe and proper legal and ethical care in today's changing world.[2] With regard to practical care, they always try to answer the question of What can I do?,†whereas they should try to answer what is essential to be done for the patients in the context of ethical principles.[3] Ethics seek the best way of taking care of the patients as well as the best nursing function.[4]
Nurses are responsible for their clinical function, and their main responsibility is to take care of the clients and patients who deserve appropriate and safe care.[5] They act based on the values they have selected. These values form a framework to evaluate their activities influencing their goals, strategies, and function.[6] These values can also be counted as a resource for nurses' conduct toward clinical ethical competency and their confrontation with contemporary ethical concerns. Values conduct human life priorities and form the world we live in. They act as one of the most basic parts of human life. Ethical values are inseparable components of the society and, as a result, nursing profession."
Discovery of basic values and reaching an agreement on clinical ethical values are essential with regard to constant changes in nurses' social class and role.[9] Nurses' awareness of their values and the effect of these values on their behavior is a core part of humanistic nursing care.[10] They need to tailor their function to the value system and cultural beliefs of their service recipients.[11] Values originate from cultural environment, social groups, religion, lived experiences, and the past. Social, cultural, religious, political, and economic considerations influence individuals and their value system,[6] and ultimately, health, education, social strategies, and patients' care. Numerous documents have been prepared in nursing texts and literature concerning these values and clarification of their traits.
The search yielded 10 nursing ethical values: Human dignity, privacy, justice, autonomy in decision making, precision and accuracy in caring, commitment, human relationship, sympathy, honesty, and individual and professional competency."
"Core nursing values essential to baccalaureate education include human dignity, integrity, autonomy, altruism, and social justice. The caring professional nurse integrates these values in clinical practice."
Let's look at some nursing school mission statements:
Johns Hopkins: "The mission of the Johns Hopkins University School of Nursing is to improve the health of individuals and diverse communities locally and globally through leadership and excellence in nursing education, research, practice, and service."
Univ of Penn: "Our mission is to make a significant impact on health by advancing science, promoting equity, demonstrating practice excellence, and preparing leaders in the discipline of nursing."
Duke: "We believe that optimal health does not preclude the existence of illness; health and illness exist on parallel continuums such that even people with chronic or debilitating illness may experience optimal levels of health through adaptation. We believe that all humans, from infants to the oldest of age, have a capacity to adapt to health and illness challenges whether they arise from environmental or genetic origins. Nursing's role is to assess, support adaptation, or intervene when the appropriate ability does not exist within the individual or group. Because health is an innate characteristic of humans, we believe that high quality health care is a human right. We believe that nursing has a moral responsibility to the common good and an obligation to social justice and equitable access to culturally sensitive, high quality care for all human beings. Nurses also are responsible for helping to reduce health disparities and reaching out to those, locally or abroad, who are vulnerable."
It will be very difficult for a nurse to get through a BSN or MSN program without embracing these values. In addition, it does not seem that a personal philosophy antithetical to these values will result in the current definition of good nursing practice.
OMG this is this! This needed to be said. In fact since joining all nurses, I have noticed these "seasoned" nurses and "students" that are completely devoid of empathy or ethics.
I don't care if you have worked 50 years as a nurse and have 4 titles after your name. If you don't follow the core values, I don't have any respect for you. And I will not show you any respect as a colleague.
You can throw around your credentials, it's nothing to me if you completely contradict this philosophy. You basically got a gold star and didn't learn anything.
Nursing is a philosophy, and it's far more than a day to day job. I get it if people have a colder view of the world, but don't be a part of my profession, representing me and a whole bunch of wonderful and necessary people, with those views. We are on all nurses. This forum is for us to discuss things from a nursing perspective. If you don't adopt that perspective you can go whine on reddit. And don't call yourself a nurse.
Tetra
131 Posts
So your argument is essentially whenever someone can't pay for something, it's a form of discrimination?