Fully licensed IEN in Nova Scotia difficulty finding work

Adavid268 · May 4, 2010

Lucky you, Silverdragon102. =) Ohh, now I get it, "dh" refers to your husband (sorry, we Filipinos have a different meaning for dh)..

Good luck to us all.. I have decided to write the CRNE in October 2010. Previous posts/threads on CRNE are really helpful. I admire the positive attitude of many members here and their willingness to help others. Thank you..

Re this thread's topic on "difficulty finding work".. I've always believed in the power of determination and hard work.. whatever I set my mind to, I find a way to reach my goals.. as they say, "If there's a will, there's a way." Everything legal, of course.

So to Aj04 & dvsbec, good luck and I hope we all find employment soon. =)

USCRNP · May 6, 2010

I just wanted to share my experience applying for a Nova Scotia nursing license.

I am a temporary resident of Canada while my husband attends a graduate program here. I obtained a work visa with no problem after spending a few hundred dollars and having a syphilis test and chest xray. The work permit only took about 6 weeks.

I am a master's prepared RN who has over 13 years of experience, but as of right now, can not get a license in Nova Scotia. My undergraduate program did not include enough clinical or theory hours. (No where in the international policy does it state how many hours are needed for a license-seems rather arbitrary.). And my graduate Nurse Practitioner degree may or may not count either-also arbitrary. So, I was told in early April that I may take a 2 day practical and multiple choice test which would be videotaped, and I would have to pay an extra 100 dollars, but the test was not available until mid-May. So...plan WAY ahead and don't count on getting licensed at all. Way bureaucratic-even with a nursing shortage. Wondering if anyone else has had these issues?

Also, you need a WORK permit in addition to a visitor's permit.

This can take a little while and involves a $150 physical, additional costs of a syphilis test, chest xray (about $135), and a work permit fee of $150. And also, be aware that the Nova Scotia educated nurses require over 500 hours of theory hours and 1000 hours of clinical hours. I believe they apply this to international nurses as well. (At least they did for me and I was unaware of this when I applied. It would have been helpful to have known this prior to my applying).

Anyway, good luck to you.

Oh, you are applying for permanent residence, so you don't need a work permit.

...I see.

Additionally,

I am getting the feeling that in spite of the Nursing shortage here, that the board purposely keeps qualified nurses from getting licensed here. Is it just me or does anyone else get that feeling?

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · May 6, 2010

I don't know how this could have been a surprise.

From Internationally Educated Nurses - VERY IMPORTANT - READ THIS FIRST

"If your education is assessed and found lacking, it's because you won't have the necessary skills to function independently in our environment. Several provinces and all three territories are now utilizing Alberta's Substantially Equivalent Competence (SEC) Assessment in cases where there are concerns regarding the suitability of an individual's education or experience. This assessment will highlight any shortfalls and ensure that applicants meet the minimum standards to which all nurses are held.

When a province assesses an IEN's education, it compares it to that of a new graduate from a local nursing program. Everyone is held to the same standard, and the bar is set fairly high. We're proud of our health care here, and want to be sure that providers are competent to function at the same level as a locally educated person. It's nothing personal.

Try to contain your criticisms of the systems in place here for immigration, assessment and registration, documentation and the rest of the components of working as a health care professional in Canada. Just as you have very good reasons for wanting to come here to work, we have very good reasons for making sure we get the right person for the job. We're all bound by the same rules and regulations, pay the same fees and have the same complaints about red tape."

From FAQ - Substantially Equivalent Competence (SEC) Assessments

"1. What is a Substantially Equivalent Competence assessment?

This assessment is a tool used by Canadian nursing regulatory bodies (Colleges of Nursing) to assess the adequacy of nursing education obtained outside of Canada where the submitted documentation of this education does not provide the information required clearly enough. The quality and completeness of documentation varies widely from country to country and there is often no other way to determine if the person's education and experience are comparable to those of Canadian-educated nurses. The SEC assesses your professional knowledge, skills and abilities. Another name for SEC that is being used by other provinces is Capacity Building for the Internationally-Educated-Nurse Assessment. CBIA is based on the SEC process developed by Mount Royal College in Calgary, Alberta. It's being used in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Nunavut, Northwest Territories and Yukon. Nova Scotia will not register any nurse who has not obtained a generalist RN education without assessment and additional education. Their website is not clear as to the method of assessing education.

2. I've already submitted all my paperwork to the College of Nursing but now they're telling me I need SEC/CBIA. What's that about?

The submission of paperwork is only the first step on what may be a very long and involved process. The College receives your paperwork in bits and pieces because they must have original documents from schools and regulatory bodies in order to prevent fraud. Once all that paper gets to their office someone reads through it all to look for specific information related to your education and experience. They will be comparing the training you received with that of the province's own graduates, looking for differences. They look at your actual nursing experience to see if what you've done since graduation may have filled in any gaps there might be in your education as compared to a locally-educated nurse. If they find gaps that haven't been filled or there simply isn't detailed-enough information in your documents, they will then require SEC/CBIA. "

And from the CRNNS website:

"Graduates of specialized programs (e.g., psychiatry/mental health, pediatrics, midwifery) are not eligible for registration unless they also have general nursing preparation.

To be registered and issued a licence to practise nursing, applicants must:

have graduated from a nursing program equivalent to programs approved in Nova Scotia at the time of the applicant’s graduation, and that prepared the applicant at the registered general nurse level." Information regarding the content and duration of Canadian nursing education programmes is available from any of the universities in the province, right there on their websites.

The "nursing shortage" has a strong tie to the economic realities of the times, both when the economy is booming and when it's receding. When Alberta's economy was soaring head-and-shoulders above the rest of the country, people from many trades and professions living in more depressed economies such as that of most Maritime provinces came out here to live the good life. Men working in the oil patch brought their families; many of their wives were nurses who easily found work. But now that the alberta economy has fallen on difficult times, those same workers who found it easy to uproot and come here have uprooted again and returned home, taking their nurse-wives with them. So the Maritimes no longer has the dire need they did for nurses or many other trades and professions.

As for the "board of nursing" (which in Nova Scotia is the College of Registered Nurses of Nova Scotia) keeping internationally-educated nurses out of the system, that's paranoia. They are held to certain expectations by the Registered Nurses Act (2006) that outline the requirements for professional nurse education, training and continuing competence. This act is similar to all those in other provinces; they all have very similar requirements for admission to the register. These requirements are what determines an IEN's eligibility, not some imagined protectionist exclusionary plot against you.

The medical examination is not determined by the Colleges of Nursing, that comes from the Canadian Immigration Service. People from all over the world want to come to Canada for our freedoms and lifestyle; their home countries may be endemic for certain communicable diseases that would represent an unacceptable strain on the Canadian health care system, which is federally funded. Why should the Canadian government bear the cost of these examinations? If a Canadian were moving to the US and needed such an examination it would be at that Canadian's own expense, because it's not medically necessary and therefore the province won't pay for it. So again, no conspiracy.

The fact of the matter is that if you want to practice your profession in a country other than where you became a professional, you will have to meet the requirements in place in that country at the time of your application. The door swings both ways.

dvsbec · May 6, 2010

I have been reading several threads regarding this issue with IEN getting licensed in Canada and how 'difficult' it is etc. There seems to be a lot of resentment towards the process, particularly with SEC.

As an internationally trained nurse, I agree with these policies - they are there to both protect nursing in Canada as well as protect those nurses wanting to come IN to canada. How can we know that what we know is comparable to what a Canadian nurse knows without going through this process, no matter how frustrating and long winded it seems to be!

You can be a brilliant nurse in your home country, but that doesn't mean that your initial education was at the same level as a Canadian student nurse - and it is *that* which you are being assessed on. For example, many nurses in Australia do not routinely cover obstetric nursing in their training, however in New Zealand, they do. Both countries produce brilliant registered nurses (and the odd terrible one too!) but their education does differ.

Another point to consider - sometimes it can come down to the information your nursing school provides to the college of registered nurses. Providing a transcript may not be enough for the College to determine if the courses you studied are comparable to theirs. So it may be more beneficial to have the nursing school provide course outlines also.

I hope that all makes sense what I'm trying to say (sorry, just finished nightshift...) Remember, these processes are there to protect everyone, and most likely are the result from past (bad) experiences of registering under qualified nurses. Keep faith - if you truely are a good nurse, then you'll be able to 'prove' this through the SEC. Its just another (frustrating) step to go through to get to the ultimate goal!

Bec.

dvsbec · May 6, 2010

USCRNP - can i ask how you went about getting the work permit? I was under the impression that you had to have a formal offer of employment before you could apply for a work permit? Just curious....

Bec

Silverdragon102, BSN · May 6, 2010

USCRNP - can i ask how you went about getting the work permit? I was under the impression that you had to have a formal offer of employment before you could apply for a work permit? Just curious....
Bec

USCRNP probably recieved a work permit based on their husband being a student. Some occupations and students including student spouse or common-law partner can apply but if going to work within the healthcare profession will have to have a medical before a work permit is given.

I don't think NS are not wanting to employ IEN's but they need to make sure your training meets their requirements and what their students have to meet. I trained way back in 86 and did conversion in 97 and I am in the process of doing a couple of distant learning courses before I will be allowed to sit CRNE all being well next month and I know of a few UK nurses that have also had to do these courses to meet requirements

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · May 6, 2010

Bec, thank you for understanding the process and for supporting it. You are one of the few who seem to "get" it. Your suggestion that these policies have developed from bad experiences is spot on. The substantially-equivalent competence assessment arose for just that reason. Education, training and scopes of practice are all individual to each country. What Canada considers to by the RN scope of practice is not exactly how other countries define their RNs and many nurses were hired without that definition being examined, creating a huge problem for the provinces that hired them.

I know it's frustrating, time-consuming, expensive, maddening, annoying and a bunch of other similar adjectives, but it's not something done for fun. It's important that Colleges register nurses who are able to provide the same level of care as a newly-graduate nurse from any Canadian province. It would be so much easier if all nursing schools in the world did the same thing but they don't. And of course each country has their own problems and economic realities that influence their actions, as well as their own methods of documentation and reporting. The only solution for our Colleges is to make one set of rules and hold every applicant to them.

USCRNP · May 7, 2010

I am a United States educated nurse with a graduate degree in ADVANCED PRACTICE NURSING from an IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL-the number 2 ivy league nursing school in the U.S. How is this education possibly not equivalent to an undergraduate degree in Canada? Also, work experience does not count for anything in the process. Would you rather have a nurse with many years of experience in a large teaching facility or a new grad? Me? I would rather have the more experienced nurse.

And, no...I do not think it was obvious on the web site that this would be an issue. You really have to look for it. I never would have thought that the education would vary that much and that my work experience for the last many years would not matter. Also, I have a feeling that the person at the Board knew this would be a problem and she could have told me it might be a problem ahead of time. Or....it should be more clearly spelled out on the web site.

I was not complaining about the work permit-that was probably the easiest and most efficient part of the process. I just wanted to emphasize that to the person-and now I can't find the post-who did not have one.

I just think that the U.S. working standards are similar to Canada's and most states in the U.S. treat Canadian nurses different than other international students. They have different testing requirements and because of this, I thought that Canada would have the same for nurses from the U.S., but I guess it is not reciprocal. I don't think I am being paranoid. I love Nova Scotia and the people here, but it is clear that Americans are not wanted here and also that there is a certain amount of xenophobia, as well.

Janfrn-really? The number of hours are on Dalhousie's web site? I looked for a long time and could not find it. I actually had to call the school to find out how many hours are required.

Just wanted to let IENs know that there are companies who will do 2 year travel contracts in Canada. O Grady Peyton is one of them. Also,

I have heard that the more remote parts of Canada, the northern provinces, are more likely to hire IENs. I think they get federal funding for it, but not sure. Maybe it would be easier to start there and then move to Nova Scotia after being licensed in another province and working there I know where I worked in the states had an IEN program. One of the nurses we hired was amazing! Good luck to all of you!

Silverdragon102, BSN · May 7, 2010

I was not complaining about the work permit-that was probably the easiest and most efficient part of the process. I just wanted to emphasize that to the person-and now I can't find the post-who did not have one.
I just think that the U.S. working standards are similar to Canada's and most states in the U.S. treat Canadian nurses different than other international students. They have different testing requirements and because of this, I thought that Canada would have the same for nurses from the U.S., but I guess it is not reciprocal. I don't think I am being paranoid. I love Nova Scotia and the people here, but it is clear that Americans are not wanted here and also that there is a certain amount of xenophobia, as well.

I guess I would disagree that Americans are not wanted, I know where I live in NS there are a few Americans and although I haven't met them I have heard people talking about them and not in any xenophobic way and coming from the UK I haven't come across any problems aimed at us, in fact most if not all have made us welcome. There are many UK nurses that struggle with meeting Canadian training including myself and I trained many many years ago. Also most provinces I believe have similar requirements and moving provinces doesn't always mean you will meet requirements.

USCRNP · May 7, 2010

Silverdragon-Sorry, no offense meant. I have just been getting very frustrated at the process. I really like Nova Scotia and have found the people here to be amazingly friendly and polite. The frustration is because I gave up an incredibly well-paying job at a prestigious medical center to come here and because I am only here temporarily, there is a definite time factor involved. If I was moving here permanently, I probably wouldn't be so frazzled and would just take my time getting my licensure.

As for the xenophobia, I am sure that people from the UK are very welcome here, but that is not exactly the type of xenophobia I meant...

As far as for getting employment in other provinces, it was more a thought about having an easier time getting a job and employment assistance as an IEN. You are right-the requirements are probably similar for licensing.

Silverdragon102, BSN · May 7, 2010

Believe me I know it can be frustrating and I have many times been frustrated at things I have had to do but really at the end of the day we have to meet their requirements in the same way a Canadian nurse has to meet US, UK or any other country's requirements. I guess I am fortunate that my husband is the one with a work permit (yes I know I can get one also) and we can apply for PR through his job and we are using my profession as a back up. I am however seeing less and less jobs advertised where I live for nurses and we don't really want to move anywhere else because we love where we live.

USCRNP · May 7, 2010

The last thing I want to do is offend anyone. This has just been much more difficult than I thought it would be. Lesson learned.

For the nurses in Nova Scotia from other countries who are here trying to get a job, have you looked into agencies for per diem work? I called Health Staff and they definitely need people. They said that if you are flexible in where you work, you can pretty much get full time hours.