I was wondering if your OR uses scrub tech's, or RN'S scrub and circulate? I just had a phone interview with a large hospital in Chicago, and they said their OR RN's scrub 50% and circulate the other 50%. They say you do one half the day, and switch for the other half of the day so their nurses are always scrubbing and circulating. Are there any nurses out there working this kind of schedule in the OR? Do you also have scrub tech's or only RN's?
's will act superior to st's because they are superior!!!! it is because of st's like you that we as
rn
's have to demonstrate our superiority. while a
rn
who is able to circulate can be taught how to scrub and do both, a st will never be able to legally perform the role of a circulator in most, if not all , states. just my :twocents.
thank you for your response. you have proven my points with every sentence that you typed. while there is no question that the rn is the st's superior in sense of the definition which concerns rank and station..... it is not always the case that they are superior in the sense of the definition which concerns grade and quality. and vice versa, every team member, st, rn, ect can take something from this point. now you on the other hand embody another form of the definition, which describes a person whom feels he is better than or above someone simply as a result of rank. look up the definion and see which one suits you best. there is a remarkable resemblance to a few obtuse surgeons i have worked with in the past.
i have often offered to my peers the idea that " a lion dose not have to roar for everyone to know he is the king of the jungle". if one is superior in quality and merit, one does not have to "act out" or "demonstrate" his/her superiority. that quality is obvious upon inspection of his work ethic.
it must be very frustrating to be in a position of a superior when one does not present adequate knowledge, communication and leadership skills to capture the respect of the team without resorting to tactics like " becuase i said so!"
regarding your comments on the present and future roles of surgical technologists...... below, i have quoted a report from the fl state senate which details the role of surgical personel. i have also included a link for your benefit should you choose to educate yourself on the facts instead of letting your emotions demonstrate your ignorance.
you stated that st's would never, blah blah blah, ect ect... if i were you, i would ,,,well,,, never say never. i personally, see the benefits of the flexibility that it would provide considering the nursing shortages we have been enduring, but have a great appreciation for the essential importance of a rn presence and hope that we are able to maintain that level and build upon that which we are functioning at now.
for the record, i have not once said anything negative about nurses as a whole, i simply have my reservations about those like yourself, whom are drunk with power!
anyways, thats my 300099487790434 cents worth! - be the change!
brianlee, that was absolutely priceless and very sobering!!:yeah::yeah::bow::redlight::rotfl::cheers::yelclap::thankya::thankya:
You need READ my posts. I said it doesn't happen where I work. In fact I actually said:In the Eastern states of Australia they are few and far between. In my state scrub techs do not work at any of the major public hospitals, they are all nurses. In private well they have non liscenced staff only because they are desperate. In the eastern states I have heard of anaesthetic technicians, there may be some scrub techs but they still use nurses as scrubs there as well. We don't have the widespread problem of nurses no longer being prevented to scrub like you guys do in the US. I don't want to see this happen in Australia. If you don't like my opinion then that's just tough because I'm not changing.
If your not happy with your scope of power then feel free to become a nurse sometime. You may just learn how limited the scope of just being the scrub really is in relation to what else is actually happening in the OR.
FYI, After three months of being a Registered Nurse with 13 years of Surgical Tech background, not only was I given a position but I was also offered and then accepted a positon as General, Vascular and Thoracic Surgical Charge Nurse. We are both entitled to our opinions. And I too will not change mine.
Surgical Techs are a integral team member in the Operating room and deserve to be treated with respect as the professionals that they are. At my hospital we hire CST's because they are trained specifically for their job role..... not because we are desperate. As a nurse with scrub skills I have plenty of opportunity to scrub cases. The Nurses that I work with are welcome to scrub as well, so long as they have the proper training and they can competently cover he scrubbed role. I appreciate and commend you on your great ferver. However, in the USA most of the OR's have developed a great deal of respect for the CST's whom we work with. Your opinion of them as a fill in during desperate times is insulting to someone like me.
Where I work, each room is staffed with 1 RN circulator and 2 STs. We have a small handful of nurses who can scrub and will do so when we don't have enough STs. However, we are so short on nurses that we consistently have 3-4 traveling RNs just to have a circulator in each room, so those nurses who can scrub very rarely do so. New hires with no OR experience aren't taught to scrub. They get one week of scrubbing in just to observe it, but it's nowhere near enough time to learn, and not much effort is made to teach those who want to learn.
The situation that you speak of is very very similair to the OR that I work in. At my OR however, the RNs that are proficient scrubs are assigned to both roles with regularity. It is unfortunate that the Nruses that want to learn do not have the opportunity at the hospital where you work because of staffing constraints. However, they do have an opinion if they are truly that interested in learning how to scrub and in turn increase their likelihood that they will get to scrub....... they can go to Surgical Technology school and formally learn how to do the job that they are interested in filling. You would have to do the same if you were interested being a Nurse. I had to do the same to get my CFA.
I just don't think techs realize all the responsibilities that the circ has to have. Scrubing certain cases can be very intense and I accept that, but most are mind numbing, boring , routine cases you could do with your eyes closed. Even the more complicated ones get so routine you seem to be just going through the motions. Circulating these cases are not always the same. The patients are always different with different medical issues that need to be dealt with. All nurses that work in the OR need to see both sides of the coin to see all that is needed in each job. This is why I have always advocated an ALL RN staff in the OR. Knowing both sides just leads the RN to be a better OR nurse.
I agree. Knowing both roles does lead to being a better OR Nurse. Thats why I advocate nurses taking a formal Srug Tech class and hopefully the Scrubs will do on to be nurses some day too. That would be great. I do admitt that there are some cases that can be very routine and slow,,, but the same can be said for circulating those cases. But to elaborate on what you just said about many of the cases being so routine that they could be done with eyes closed.... I am curious, with your high opinion of an all nursing staff and low opinion of scrubs, dosent it seem to be a waist of Nursing staff to scrub cases then if it is soo mind numbing? Again, I do not like the inference that scrubbing most cases are mind numbing and boring. I happen to think that scrubbing is one of the more exciting things that I get to do with my job.
Really, you think the hospitals would realize that while they save money in some respects, they sacrifice efficiency by not having nurses that can scrub and circulate. Yes, having scrub experience makes you a better circulator but I found that I was a better scrub too after my RN training...you have the big picture then. I realized why the circulator couldn't always drop everything and grab me what I needed. It's like the lightbulb went on once I started circulating as far as the whole patient..not just instruments and the incision.
I don't look down on techs, I used to be one. I just ask for the same courtesy from the techs I work with...one of them that I work with closely is always putting the circulator's role down...it's "easy" according to her. I try not to let it get to me because I believe that the only way you can get how stressful circulating can be is to do it.
I love scrubbing...I look at it as a break!
I love scrubbing too! I find it is a great break from the paperwork and politics of nursing. I def do not agree with the scrub tech you work with. I would never and never have referred to the RN's role as "easy",,,, unless I was obviously joking. I have always felt and stated that RNs in the OR schould be versatile as circs and scrubs. How are you suppose to be the "Patient Advocate" if you have very little idea of what is actually going on at the field?
Please do not let one or a few CST's badmouthing speak for the majority of us. I will try to do the same in respect to nurses that bad mouth my techs.
I trained as an RN in South Africa and nursed there for many years before immigrating to the USA.
As as student nurse in our 4th year (senior) , we spent 2 months in the Operating Theatre (OR as we call it here in the US) learning the roles of both Scrub nurse as well as circulating nurse or "floor nurse" as we called it.
It was a very comprehensive introduction to the world of the OR or "theatre" and included time in Recovery Room (PACU) and admitting holding area, anaesthesia, Central Sterile Supply Dept (CSSD).
I worked in Cardio Thoracic theatre (3 rooms) of a 30 room suite at Groote Schuur hospital (where the 1st Heart transplant was pioneered) and had to scrub for a minimum of 5 cases. We had a veteran OR RN preceptor standing right next to us for guidance and moral support. Because it was a large academic hospital, the surgeons were used to students and were very encouraging of us being at the 'table' as they knew that that encouragement would foster a new generation of RN's wanting to work in the OR's.
Hospitals in South Africa do not employ any non-nursing personnel in any area. The Theatres/OR's are staffed by RN's , Enrolled nurses (equivalent to LVNs) and Enrolled nursing auxilliaries who were also enrolled with the SA Nursing Council.
RN's in the OR's in South Africa get to serve as 1st assistants on occasion when there is not one available and the surgeon's usually pay the RN the 1st assistant fee.
I think US nursing students should get greater exposure to the OR and to the roles of RN's in the OR during their training and be encouraged to scrub under direct supervision as part of their clinical requirements. This experience will create greater interest in pursuing a career path in the OR environment. As student nurses wayy back in South Africa, our great experiences in the OR resulted in no fewer than 20 of the 100 students getting into OR nursing after graduation.Most still practice in this speciality.
I would love it if the Nurses in the USA had this opportunity!
I think the only way you can appreciate the role of the circulating nurse is when you get someone who is lazy/incompetent as your circulator. You can be the best scrub nurse in the world but if your scout nurse isn't up to scratch, then everything just goes to pieces.
The same could be said about being a Circulator that doesnt have a CST that is up to snuff. BTW, every scrub tech and nurse in the OR has worked with someone that was lazy and not up to snuff.
I don't look down on techs, I used to be one. I just ask for the same courtesy from the techs I work with...one of them that I work with closely is always putting the circulator's role down...it's "easy" according to her. I try not to let it get to me because I believe that the only way you can get how stressful circulating can be is to do it.
I love scrubbing...I look at it as a break!
Well said. When I was a CST, I used to think circulating is easy. Now as a circulator, I have to do 6 things at the same time and answer to 6 people including nurses from the floor. When I am scrubbing, I just pay attention to the sterile field, the scrub team and circulator. Now I am responsible for documenting everything going on in the room in addition to charging for everything being used in the procedure. Yes, scrubbing is a break.
Many techs in the OR are very bossy. I do wonder if I was like them when I was a CST.
I find that many people in the OR in general are bossy, even the secretaries, equipment techs and Nurses Aides can be... it seems you have to have a strong personality to survive in the OR. In regards to your other comment. Any good scrub tech is also thinking about just as much as any good nurse. You might have to be dealing with 6 different people, this is true,,,, but the Scrub is dealing with the Surgeon,,, who in my opinion taks much greater presidence over any stressfull conversation that may be had between you and a floor nurse. Not to mention the Surgeon in general is way mor demanding. Oh,, and if we are going by numbers.... the Scrub is paying attention to the Surgeon, Assistant, Circulator, Anesthesia, Perfusionist and well,,, the patient... seems like those numbers are pretty even to me.
God,, I wish we could just appreciate and respect each other.
Well, I only post every few months or so but I couldn't pass this one up. If you do any searches on me I have always said and will continue to say that an OR should be staffed with RNs and RNs only. Sorry, techs were only invented to provide somewhere to put military techs. They are also a stop gap in budgets for hospitals and the only reason they are used. They fill a needed void whereas hospitals have trouble finding trained OR nurses. Sorry, this is my opinion and as you can see I have been around much longer than most of you and remember the good days of ALL RN staffs.
Take this as a fact or take this as an insult, however you prefer. Many jobs have been created to fill the need in different roles of healthcare. You seem to be out of touch these days. Healthcare is evolving if you haven’t noticed. It’s like hearing MDs say that CRNAs and NPs shouldn’t practice independently or administer drugs, since they didn’t go through medical school, intense years and hours of residency and fellowships. Or hearing them say, “Since it’s cheaper to see an NP, you’re going to get lousy care” Your ego seems to get the best of you. Many military techs that I have worked with have some of the best knowledge than a few RNs I know that can barely keep their hands above the waist have. Techs are NOT nurses, they never claim to be. They have their limitations and scope of practice just like a nurse has theirs. Nurses should not see techs as a threat, just like an anesthesiologist should not see a CRNA as a threat to their job, or an Obstetrician seeing CNM as one too. Or even a Family Physician seeing a FNP as a “takeover”. Techs are trained to provide the best care for the patient, just like any other caregiver should. If you are having a hard time excepting this and it hurts your ego, then perhaps you should work in a different department like ICU where they have all RNs.
Take this as a fact or take this as an insult, however you prefer. Many jobs have been created to fill the need in different roles of healthcare. You seem to be out of touch these days. Healthcare is evolving if you haven't noticed. It's like hearing MDs say that CRNAs and NPs shouldn't practice independently or administer drugs, since they didn't go through medical school, intense years and hours of residency and fellowships. Or hearing them say, "Since it's cheaper to see an NP, you're going to get lousy care" Your ego seems to get the best of you. Many military techs that I have worked with have some of the best knowledge than a few RNs I know that can barely keep their hands above the waist have. Techs are NOT nurses, they never claim to be. They have their limitations and scope of practice just like a nurse has theirs. Nurses should not see techs as a threat, just like an anesthesiologist should not see a CRNA as a threat to their job, or an Obstetrician seeing CNM as one too. Or even a Family Physician seeing a FNP as a "takeover". Techs are trained to provide the best care for the patient, just like any other caregiver should. If you are having a hard time excepting this and it hurts your ego, then perhaps you should work in a different department like ICU where they have all RNs.
I'm happy to have non nursing staff in the OR to do things like restocking supplies, helping clean and set up for cases, taking instruments out to be cleaned etc. But NOT in the role of the scrub nurse. Thankfully, I can't it happening at my hospital anyway.
I have a hard time believing that technicians are not a threat to the RN role in theatre either. I've read nurses comments here about how OR nurses over in the US mainly circulate and don't get to scrub at all. I very firmly believe that to be a good nurse in the OR and fully understand the perioperative environment you need to be able to scrub and circulate.
And who do these techs work under anyway? Are they supervised by the nursing staff? Are they legally accountable if something was left behind?
Future O.R. Nurse
97 Posts
originally posted by falika35
thank you for your response. you have proven my points with every sentence that you typed. while there is no question that the rn is the st's superior in sense of the definition which concerns rank and station..... it is not always the case that they are superior in the sense of the definition which concerns grade and quality. and vice versa, every team member, st, rn, ect can take something from this point. now you on the other hand embody another form of the definition, which describes a person whom feels he is better than or above someone simply as a result of rank. look up the definion and see which one suits you best. there is a remarkable resemblance to a few obtuse surgeons i have worked with in the past.
i have often offered to my peers the idea that " a lion dose not have to roar for everyone to know he is the king of the jungle". if one is superior in quality and merit, one does not have to "act out" or "demonstrate" his/her superiority. that quality is obvious upon inspection of his work ethic.
it must be very frustrating to be in a position of a superior when one does not present adequate knowledge, communication and leadership skills to capture the respect of the team without resorting to tactics like " becuase i said so!"
regarding your comments on the present and future roles of surgical technologists...... below, i have quoted a report from the fl state senate which details the role of surgical personel. i have also included a link for your benefit should you choose to educate yourself on the facts instead of letting your emotions demonstrate your ignorance.
you stated that st's would never, blah blah blah, ect ect... if i were you, i would ,,,well,,, never say never. i personally, see the benefits of the flexibility that it would provide considering the nursing shortages we have been enduring, but have a great appreciation for the essential importance of a rn presence and hope that we are able to maintain that level and build upon that which we are functioning at now.
http://www.flsenate.gov/data/session...h0483a.hcr.pdf
for the record, i have not once said anything negative about nurses as a whole, i simply have my reservations about those like yourself, whom are drunk with power!
anyways, thats my 300099487790434 cents worth! - be the change!
brianlee, that was absolutely priceless and very sobering!!
:yeah:
:yeah:
:bow::redlight::rotfl::cheers::yelclap::thankya::thankya: