DNP to PhD programs?

llg, PhD, RN · Feb 14, 2009

I haven't heard of any plans for that ... but I think it is a GREAT question ... one that the nursing profession needs to consider.

There are many MD's who also have PhD's. I hope nursing keeps that option open for people.

marachne · Feb 14, 2009

I can't speak in general terms, or what is/has been approved by either AACN or local BON, but looking at the program at my institution, there is almost no overlap between the DNP and the PhD programs.

Remember, one has a clinical focus, one a research focus. Even similar courses (such as statistics) have a different emphasis. Of course, the biggest difference to my mind is the PhD dissertation. This is a very major undertaking (and what stretches out a PhD education frame in most cases to at least 4 years). The DNP has residencies and a clinical project, at their large non traditionally didactic material

Recognizing that this is just one program, below are links to the post-masters and post bachelor's PhD and DNP programs at OHSU. You can see there is really no overlap.

http://www.ohsu.edu/son/academic/phdpdxposft.pdf

http://www.ohsu.edu/son/academic/phdpostbaccposft.pdf

http://www.ohsu.edu/son/academic/dnp_postmasters-pos.pdf

http://www.ohsu.edu/son/academic/dnp_bs-acc-pos.pdf

http://www.ohsu.edu/son/academic/dnp_post_bacc_pos.pdf

ivanh3 · Feb 15, 2009

I can't speak in general terms, or what is/has been approved by either AACN or local BON, but looking at the program at my institution, there is almost no overlap between the DNP and the PhD programs.

I looked at the links. Thanks, it is good info. I think you are right. As much as I think I am interested in the DNP, I don't know how much credibility it has in the world of higher education. Which is not to say that it does not. I am just not in a place right now to be able to do adequate research on it. After I complete my masters I will take a serious look, and maybe by then things will have gelled a bit more.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Feb 15, 2009

I looked at the links. Thanks, it is good info. I think you are right. As much as I think I am interested in the DNP, I don't know how much credibility it has in the world of higher education. Which is not to say that it does not. I am just not in a place right now to be able to do adequate research on it. After I complete my masters I will take a serious look, and maybe by then things will have gelled a bit more.

It could very well have a place in higher ed, especially if you plan on teaching in a NP program.

ivanh3 · Feb 15, 2009

It could very well have a place in higher ed, especially if you plan on teaching in a NP program.

We shall see. I still see debate about tenure or not. I have not seen any tenured DNPs speak up so I am not sure what the status is. I understand that PhDs are heavily involved in research, but I honestly feel that DNPs could just as easily do research. Many MDs without PhDs do research and are published as well. As the AANC also points out PhDs are no more/less qualified to teach than DNPs. Both need training in educating. I would add that an NP with a PhD is just as qualified to practice or lead as a DNP. So it almost sounds to me like why? Again, I like the idea of a DNP. It would be a good fit. I just am not convinced it is worth having all of these different doctorates. Why not just have PhDs with different concentrations?

By the way, your profile pic is absolutely fabulous. Loved that show.

Ivan

llg, PhD, RN · Feb 15, 2009

We shall see. I still see debate about tenure or not. I have not seen any tenured DNPs speak up so I am not sure what the status is. I understand that PhDs are heavily involved in research, but I honestly feel that DNPs could just as easily do research. Many MDs without PhDs do research and are published as well. As the AANC also points out PhDs are no more/less qualified to teach than DNPs. Both need training in educating. I would add that an NP with a PhD is just as qualified to practice or lead as a DNP. So it almost sounds to me like why? Again, I like the idea of a DNP. It would be a good fit. I just am not convinced it is worth having all of these different doctorates. Why not just have PhDs with different concentrations?
By the way, your profile pic is absolutely fabulous. Loved that show.
Ivan

I agree -- and I doubt that the profession of nursing will be able to sustain the uniqueness of each role in the long run. The original DSN and DNS degrees were supposed to be a "practice" degree rather than a research degree -- but some of the students and some of the schools that provided those programs wanted to produce doctoral level academics. So, the degrees gradually morphed into looking pretty much like PhD programs.

There is no law that says you need a PhD to do research. Some of the DNP's will want to do research and will be successful at it. Others will want to take teaching jobs. Eventually, the lines will blurr. However, it may well be that the general university faculty governance rules will always prohibit the DNP's from becoming tenures full professors -- or allow them to teach in PhD programs or sit on dissertation committees, etc. So, the DNP's would be "part of the faculty," but not allowed to get to the top of the career ladder.

I have a PhD and work in a hospital (in staff development). I teach classes, work to develop both evidence-based practice projects and researh. I do programs evaluations. etc. I teach an ocassional class at a local univesity and hope to teach a little more when I finally retire from my hospital job and ease into retirement. I've known other PhD's who have been NP's.

There are lots of options ...and I think you are wise to give yourself and the nursing profession a little time to evolve a bit before making a final decision.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Feb 15, 2009

However, it may well be that the general university faculty governance rules will always prohibit the DNP's from becoming tenures full professors -- or allow them to teach in PhD programs or sit on dissertation committees, etc. So, the DNP's would be "part of the faculty," but not allowed to get to the top of the career ladder.

I've wondered about this, myself. Do you think DNPs may be given other types of opportunities to complete the service requirements for tenure (other than dissertation committee work)? I can see where they might be able to teach more hours to compensate for the lack of research if they don't want to do that, but what about the service? Do you think they'll have a different set of requirements for tenure?

There are lots of options ...and I think you are wise to give yourself and the nursing profession a little time to evolve a bit before making a final decision.

ITA. :up:

UVA Grad Nursing · Feb 16, 2009

We have both programs at the University of Virginia, and had one student this year transfer from the DNP to the PHD program. He became more interested in clinical trials research, and the methods needed for sound trials research are better housed in the PHD program. Our two programs do not share required courses, so his DNP classes became his electives in the PHD program.

llg, PhD, RN · Feb 16, 2009

I've wondered about this, myself. Do you think DNPs may be given other types of opportunities to complete the service requirements for tenure (other than dissertation committee work)? I can see where they might be able to teach more hours to compensate for the lack of research if they don't want to do that, but what about the service? Do you think they'll have a different set of requirements for tenure?
QUOTE]
Perhaps. That sort of thing is not unheard of. However, as universities are cutting back on the number of tenured positions available (and using more non-tenure track, part-time, or adjunct faculty to save money), there will be pressure to limit the tenure career path to fewer and fewer types of people, not to expand it.
I can see it possibly "going either way" -- depending upon a lot of complex factors. The DNP is simply too new a degree and the world is in too much flux now to be able to predict anything with ANY degree of certainty. That's why I recommended that the OP give it some time before making any decisions.

marachne · Feb 17, 2009

We shall see. I still see debate about tenure or not. I have not seen any tenured DNPs speak up so I am not sure what the status is. I understand that PhDs are heavily involved in research, but I honestly feel that DNPs could just as easily do research. Many MDs without PhDs do research and are published as well. As the AANC also points out PhDs are no more/less qualified to teach than DNPs. Both need training in educating. I would add that an NP with a PhD is just as qualified to practice or lead as a DNP. So it almost sounds to me like why? Again, I like the idea of a DNP. It would be a good fit. I just am not convinced it is worth having all of these different doctorates. Why not just have PhDs with different concentrations?
By the way, your profile pic is absolutely fabulous. Loved that show.
Ivan

Well, in my experience as a IRB board member, many of those "MDs who do research," unless they've been at it a while and/or have research training as well do a poor job of designing studies. Many of the MDs who do research do it as part of larger, multi-site clinical trials that are sponsored and designed by others.

Doing good research (not to mention getting funded to do research) means having a good understanding of myriad aspects of study design, including instrument selection, recruiting, analysis, etc. etc. etc. All you have to do is look at the surveys that many masters students put up for thesis work to see that there's a lot more to it than just having an intersting idea.

My understanding of the reasoning behind the DNP is to be on a par with other HCP like PharmD. I think that llg has it right when she mentions the shrinking pool of tenure track positions.

The only thing known is that things are in flux. I'd giving yourself some time to decide is probably wise...the other thing to think about is if you are mobile or not. Getting into a program that is a good fit, is a wise idea if you have the flexibility to go where the program is. Having a better idea what you want will help you choose the right school and program.