DNP or PhD How did you choose?

PG2018 · Dec 1, 2015

Unless the DNP were repurposed into a clinically-oriented degree, replete with courses ending in the -ology suffix I'd choose the PhD. Why? The PhD is a more recognized degree, likely taken more seriously in academic circles, and if research is done in the right area then you could become somewhat of a clinical expert in a given field. My master's research interests were in law enforcement related stress, PTSD, etc. I could easily translate something along those lines into a dissertation, however, I don't work in such a capacity that would lend me well into seeing LEOs as patients. Beyond that, I'm interested in neuroscience which I can get a PhD in as well as experimental psychology with the latter really being an area of psychology of interest, i.e. social. However, again that wouldn't really do anything clinically for me. Regardless, neither will raise my revenue producing rates, I don't want a university post, and people are against calling NPs "doctor" so there's really no personal merit to it. I'll just continue obtaining my doctorate via Kindle. I read enough to have twice or thrice earned a doctorate in something, lol.

SarahEAW · Dec 1, 2015

Thanks for your comments. It sounds like you have a very intriguing area of research interest. I do think one has to consider the financial impact. My children have started on graduate programs, and I just told them "don't do a program unless it offers financial support."

I am not sure if I really thought about that part. The PhD certainly has been a longer journey than I expected.

RegularNurse · Dec 2, 2015

I think DNP programs are marketed as an extension of an NP degree or a terminal degree for someone in a leadership position. The majority of nurses in grad school are going for NP, so it is reasonable for them to go that route. I have been told by peers that the PhD is much more difficult in both time and content than the DNP, so people don't pursue it when they can get an easier terminal degree because neither will likely increase their earnings enough to offset the effort.

PG2018 · Dec 3, 2015

Yeah, it's a terminal degree, but for the life of me I cannot understand what the incentive is.

SarahEAW · Dec 4, 2015

I think part of the push for the Doctoral level Nursing Degree DNP is to keep pace with other health professionals like Pharmacists, OT, PT, etc. I also believe eventually, if it is already not the plan, that NPs will be be required to have the doctoral level degree. We all have seen the endless debates about levels of entry into nursing, I think it is important for those entering nursing to understand the progressive move of education and plan accordingly. We do work in very complex work settings requiring complex skill sets. My interest in Nurse Managers was partly driven by the complexity of their roles and wide ranging scope of responsibilities.... everything from million dollar budgets to implementation of safe care standards. Advanced degrees are also becoming standard requirements for leadership roles in leading hospitals. So, I see a lot of justification for them.

synaptic · Dec 5, 2015

Since when are nurses in charge of million dollar budgets?

PG2018 · Dec 5, 2015

I think she was implying unit managers, etc.

allnurses Guide · Dec 5, 2015

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/ContrastGrid.pdf Here is basic overview of the difference in DNP and PhD programs from the CRNA perspective, but it relates to pretty much to any APRN.

One of the reasons that universities like to have PhDs is that it often makes getting grants easier and those universities take 50-60% of that grant money.

psychgirlRN · Dec 7, 2015

Please take this with a grain of salt that I am in the middle of finals and feel a little bitter right now :cry: , but I think MSN to PhD might be the best way to go if you are someone who loves learning and values expertise. I am not seeing an advancement in clinical excellence through the DNP degree. It really is like a mini-PhD at this time. A capstone project is like a confusing half-dissertation. PT and Pharm (not sure about OT because they are very theory based) are not spending the last year or 1.5 years of their practice doctorate getting "clinical" hours focused on their capstone project and classroom time dripping in theory. They are out in the field learning or they are in the class learning more science. My impression was that the increased clinical hours which many DNP programs are calling "residency" would make me a better clinician, when in reality less than half of the additional 500 hours are required to be clinically focused seeing patients. It is put toward time spent on your capstone project, which might be in a clinical setting, but isn't necessarily learning to be a better clinician (it is more improving a process or system of a healthcare setting). I would be interested to see how other professional programs transitioned from Master's to Doctorate programs. It seems nursing schools are dependent on the revenue generated from massive MSN classes (think Vanderbilt 11 month online NP program). I am not saying that these program do not produce good NPs, but what I am saying is if these schools are dedicated to advancing the profession to DNP only, then they will have to cut their losses for a few years by shutting down these quick MSN options and making DNP the only option. I highly doubt that schools in PT offered a master's and doctorate simultaneously, but I could be proven wrong. By doing this we are not advancing the DNP. Now, I personally am not sure it should be encouraged or if it is needed, but one positive I see is helping to control the influx of sub-par providers. I am so tired of hearing NP students cite "I hated floor nursing" as their reason for going to NP school. Why not change careers? I hear we are coming out the recession so why not try finance, engineering, ect.? The oversaturation needs to stop if we want to be known as quality providers. IMO. Of course.

I am in a BSN-DNP program at this time. I chose it over a 100% online program due to hopes of increased faculty support and connections (to help get clinicals because it is difficult where I live), but I didn't realize when I started that literally half of the program is all about the capstone. The DNP is also going to cost me less or the exact same as the MSN if I stay in it because scholarships are offered to DNP, but not MSN where I live. So now I am considering stopping before I get too far in and transferring into a MSN program. Then I can decide later if DNP is a good option (if the market goes that direction) or if I want to be in a faculty position I could go PhD. I am also considering stopping and taking the MCAT for med school just for funsies. We shall see.

At the end of the day, I just get the feeling the nursing profession is really confused and misguided. Who is making the decisions here? The ANA says we need one thing, but schools won't take the plunge.

SarahEAW · Dec 10, 2015

psychgirlRN,

I think you bring up a lot of valid points. I understand your feeling about the "confusing" state of nursing education. I guess when the DNP came along, I thought it would be primarily geared toward clinicians. I see a lot of DNP students doing great research projects, yet we hear all the time that PhD is a purely research degree. I like to think that the PhD will also help to advance the profession as a science and help to bring more nurses to the policy table.

I think we have to remind ourselves that nursing is a "young science." I have hopes that the "dust will settle" in the future and the various degrees will find their best place in the big picture.

Keep trail blazing!

PG2018 · Dec 11, 2015

Please take this with a grain of salt that I am in the middle of finals and feel a little bitter right now , but I think MSN to PhD might be the best way to go if you are someone who loves learning and values expertise. I am not seeing an advancement in clinical excellence through the DNP degree. It really is like a mini-PhD at this time. A capstone project is like a confusing half-dissertation. PT and Pharm (not sure about OT because they are very theory based) are not spending the last year or 1.5 years of their practice doctorate getting "clinical" hours focused on their capstone project and classroom time dripping in theory. They are out in the field learning or they are in the class learning more science. My impression was that the increased clinical hours which many DNP programs are calling "residency" would make me a better clinician, when in reality less than half of the additional 500 hours are required to be clinically focused seeing patients. It is put toward time spent on your capstone project, which might be in a clinical setting, but isn't necessarily learning to be a better clinician (it is more improving a process or system of a healthcare setting). I would be interested to see how other professional programs transitioned from Master's to Doctorate programs. It seems nursing schools are dependent on the revenue generated from massive MSN classes (think Vanderbilt 11 month online NP program). I am not saying that these program do not produce good NPs, but what I am saying is if these schools are dedicated to advancing the profession to DNP only, then they will have to cut their losses for a few years by shutting down these quick MSN options and making DNP the only option. I highly doubt that schools in PT offered a master's and doctorate simultaneously, but I could be proven wrong. By doing this we are not advancing the DNP. Now, I personally am not sure it should be encouraged or if it is needed, but one positive I see is helping to control the influx of sub-par providers. I am so tired of hearing NP students cite "I hated floor nursing" as their reason for going to NP school. Why not change careers? I hear we are coming out the recession so why not try finance, engineering, ect.? The oversaturation needs to stop if we want to be known as quality providers. IMO. Of course.
I am in a BSN-DNP program at this time. I chose it over a 100% online program due to hopes of increased faculty support and connections (to help get clinicals because it is difficult where I live), but I didn't realize when I started that literally half of the program is all about the capstone. The DNP is also going to cost me less or the exact same as the MSN if I stay in it because scholarships are offered to DNP, but not MSN where I live. So now I am considering stopping before I get too far in and transferring into a MSN program. Then I can decide later if DNP is a good option (if the market goes that direction) or if I want to be in a faculty position I could go PhD. I am also considering stopping and taking the MCAT for med school just for funsies. We shall see.
At the end of the day, I just get the feeling the nursing profession is really confused and misguided. Who is making the decisions here? The ANA says we need one thing, but schools won't take the plunge.

I agree. I don't understand the clinical significance of a capstone project. It's akin to the many research turn proposal projects conducted by business and engineering students. The capstone isn't added clinical training thus the DNP doesn't establish parity with the DPT, PharmD, et al.

Sharing your sentiment, I also feel the DNP is a misguided attempt to "raise the bar."