discussion regarding education of NP (DNP) and PA compared to MD/DO

RN to Medschool · Jul 9, 2008

Dear CORE0:

As far as the rest:
Originally Posted by DRFP
Core0
You fullfill my expectations of a PA,
LOL Insults are very mature......

IM is now 4 years in many progrems, there are a Few that are 3 Years, ,
I was speaking in general but when Nurses and PA's start to argue, emotions are used as facts.
This is one reason why I'm becoming a Doctor verses staying an
RN
, just tired of the BS in the profession.

Yea right as much as we are to believe you are a PA-C,

Originally Posted by DRFP

CORE0, it must frustrate you
that DNP's, NP's and PA's will not by law be called Doctor in the clinical setting, if you want that there is Medical School.

As far as training for full License Here's Ga law for an example

I put in bold the 3 years.

This is typical of many states laws and should be the standard posted.
You see Medical Students do not pick the lowest standard as a rule we pick the highest.

Good Luck

Originally Posted by DRFP
PA's in GA are kept under close Physician supervision even in satellite offices:

If you are not practicing this way in GA ( as the other PA's )
then the law is being broken.

Not a good thing.

I bolded some stuff to help you "remember".
David Carpenter, PA-C

This was after you questioned my credentials.........

For someone that purports to be in medical school

Called me a guest? because I'm a Medical student? I'm also a Nurse, an RN of 20 years I think that means I should be allowed on a Nursing forum and have opinions about Nursing, right?

Also the Georgia law clearly does say 1 and 3 years for license I pointed that out, 1 for US grad and 3 for FMG grad, Caribbean students can be licensed in GA I know more then a few

(ii) Applicants who graduated from medical school after July 1, 1985 must complete
three years of post-graduate training in the United States in a program approved by the
Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) or the American
Osteopathic Association (AOA) or three years of post-graduate training in Canada in a

https://allnurses.com/forums/f34/do-you-think-np-s-midlevels-314439-4.html#post2954878 link to the post of the full law.

I stated fact that if you are not adhering to the Law of Georgia for a PA then you are breaking it. Simple I think. Not an insult just a fact. How is that hostile? I must adhere to GA law for Nursing as a nurse and to the Law as a medical student.

For you to be so hostile to me I must hit a nerve. It is not very professional.

don't really have a hard time supporting physicians in this, I do have a hard time supporting you. Nursing will now have to make up a new term when horizontal violence is practiced by a former nurse now practicing medicine. I precept medical students, PA students and NPs. I understand the difference in educational models and how to respect people.

This is 100% uncalled for. and not professional, I would not treat you different for not agreeing with me.

I have no Idea what you mean by "Violence"? That seems physical? all because I do not agree with you? WOW

hypocaffeinemia, BSN, RN · Jul 9, 2008

I want to preface by pointing out I was essentially arguing your side in the other thread.

That said, the degree plan you list for the DNP is for those that already have their MSN/NP, so it isn't accurate.

RN to Medschool · Jul 9, 2008

Admission Requirements
Cumulative GPA of 3.0 on a 4.0 scale in a program resulting in the award of a master's degree in nursing from an NLNAC- or CCNE-accredited college or university, or an equivalent degree from a comparable foreign university
Official transcripts for all prior undergraduate and graduate study
Three letters of recommendation
An interview with selected applicants will be arranged after the applications are received and reviewed
500 to 1,000-word essay outlining goals, objectives, and focused area of interest in pursuing the DNP
Current RN license (Clinical agencies may require a Maryland license.)
Current resume or curriculum vitae

i think it is relevant since a Masters in Nursing is not clinically oriented all the time:

Clinical Nurse Leader
Fall Admission Sample Plan of Study Options Course Title (Credits) 16-Month Option 21-Month Option First Semester (Fall) NURS 501: Pathopharmacology and Pharmacology Bases
for Nursing Practice (5) NURS 503: Health Assessment (3) NURS 505: Introduction to Professional Nursing Practice (4) NURS 507: Introduction to Nursing and the Clinical Nurse Leader Role (3) NURS 622: Systems and Populations in Health Care (3) Winter Session NURS 625: Gerontology Nursing (3) Second Semester (Spring) NURS 511: Psychiatric/Mental Health Nursing for
Clinical Nurse Leader (5) NURS 514: Adult Health Nursing (6) NURS 625: Gerontology Nursing (3) NURS 701: Science and Research for Advanced Practice Nursing (4) NURS 736: Informatics and Technology (3) Summer Session NURS 509: Nursing Care of the Childbearing Family (5) NURS 517: Nursing Care of Infants and Children (4) Third Semester (Fall) NURS 511: Psychiatric/Mental Health Nursing (5) NURS 622: Systems: Populations in Health Care (3) NURS 736: Informatics and Technology (3) NURS 523: Clinical Nurse Leader Practicum (8) NURS 525: Clinical Nurse Leader (3) NURS 508: Community Health Nursing (5) Fourth Semester (Spring) NURS 508: Community Health Nursing (5) NURS 523: Clinical Nurse Leader Practicum (8) NURS 525: Clinical Nurse Leader (3) Total Credits Total Credits for MS CNL Option (either time-line) 64

Yes the MSN is just more Nursing courses really

I can only look at it I do not have a MSN myself

RN to Medschool · Jul 9, 2008

My Point is that the RN BSN and MSN are Nursing oriented degrees

Even the DNP seems to be more Nursing then Medical

so a DNP is 75% Nursing and maybe 25% Medical as what I currently understand. A NP that gets a DNP will have more Medical training though.

This is not personal but should be looked at for comparison to MD and DO since there are some who have said DNP should be Primary care providers like MD's and DO's

I do not agree.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Jul 9, 2008

DRFP,

First, good luck on your new career path. As a fellow nurse and a practicing nurse practitioner, I am particularly proud of nurses who venture into other fields of study and career paths specifically those who later on become physicians, lawyers, and other types of professionals. I hope you do not forget your nursing background as I feel that this will benefit you immensely in your future practice as a physician.

I also understand that you are very passionate about making everyone in this forum realize that a nurse practitioner's training at the DNP level is not the same as that of a physician with a MD or DO degree. That is a fact nurse practitioners like me totally agree with. Regardless of what you've heard or read in the news or any form of media, and regardless of whatever anyone says in this forum, nurse pracitioners are NOT out to replace physicians. Even with the DNP, no reputable nurse practitioner organization or training program endorses this notion.

I invite you to read the American Association of Colleges of Nursing's FAQ's on the DNP and focus your attention to questions number 21 and 22 (http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/DNPFAQ.htm). Do not hesitate to ask any practicing NP's opinion on matters pertaining to our practice. As I respect your choice to become a physician, I ask that you also do the same for the NP's and would be NP's who frequent this forum. Flaming words and insults are not necessary as we exchange opinions.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Jul 10, 2008

This is not personal but should be looked at for comparison to MD and DO since there are some who have said DNP should be Primary care providers like MD's and DO's

Long before the DNP became public, nurse practitioners have been providing primary care to many patients. The nurse practice acts of each state have provisions that allow this to happen. Physician involvement varies but that does not in any way discredit the fact that NP's have been providing primary care.

hypocaffeinemia, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2008

My honest opinion as someone who has already lined up my way into a master's after graduation is that I am a bit disappointed in the lack of medical training for the DNP, too.

That said, I'm happy that alternative teaching strategies such as online classes are offered. I know many of your peers at SDN look down upon online classes, but for many subjects I've found online classes to be equally as rigorous as in-person classes. The online classes certainly beat the large classes, nay, lectures with 100-200 students that made up the bulk of my undergrad biology degree.

So while the overall medical education aspect of the DNP leaves me wanting, I find that the style of education is a lot more conducive to my learning than spending hours strapped in a seat for several years, staying up all night cramming for tests. I actually think the medical model could use a major overhaul and produce far superior doctors than current. The only thing going for the current model is 100 or so years of tradition, essentially. Even counting the DO programs, there is no real deviation from the norm to compare to. I think, even with highly reduced didactic and clinical hours, if the DNP is successful it will force the medical model to reevaluate itself and perhaps make changes for the better-- there's quite a few people I know that would make excellent physicians but they don't even look into it because they value the stability of their family lifes and income. They see how the medical model stresses people and stretches them to their very core and unlike some of the nontraditional medical students or the traditional students naive to the world, they are sane enough to realize it isn't worth it as currently established.

There is nothing inherent in the medical model that forces it to be soul-destroying. There are plenty of other fields with equally difficult if not more difficult content to master which do not place the same stresses on oneself.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Jul 10, 2008

i think it is relevant since a Masters in Nursing is not clinically oriented all the time:Yes the MSN is just more Nursing courses really
I can only look at it I do not have a MSN myself

A Masters-prepared nurse without a clinical specialization (such as NP, CNS, CNM, or CRNA) who finishes a DNP program (whether a program allows this to happen or not) is NOT an advanced practice nurse without receiving the required courses and being certified in one of the advanced practice nursing fields (with the exception of the CNS in certain states). This is what's frustrating about some of the dnp programs around. If the DNP is supposed to be a clinical doctorate, then only those who are already certified as advanced practice nurses or are training to become advanced practice nurses should be allowed to register.

core0 · Jul 10, 2008

Dear CORE0:
This was after you questioned my credentials.........
Called me a guest? because I'm a Medical student? I'm also a Nurse, an RN of 20 years I think that means I should be allowed on a Nursing forum and have opinions about Nursing, right?
Also the Georgia law clearly does say 1 and 3 years for license I pointed that out, 1 for US grad and 3 for FMG grad, Caribbean students can be licensed in GA I know more then a few
https://allnurses.com/forums/f34/do-you-think-np-s-midlevels-314439-4.html#post2954878 link to the post of the full law.
I stated fact that if you are not adhering to the Law of Georgia for a PA then you are breaking it. Simple I think. Not an insult just a fact. How is that hostile? I must adhere to GA law for Nursing as a nurse and to the Law as a medical student.
For you to be so hostile to me I must hit a nerve. It is not very professional.
This is 100% uncalled for. and not professional, I would not treat you different for not agreeing with me.
I have no Idea what you mean by "Violence"? That seems physical? all because I do not agree with you? WOW

I'll man up here. I apologize for my unprofessional comments. Blame it on a job where a bad week means people die.

David Carpenter, PA-C

RN to Medschool · Jul 10, 2008

I'll man up here. I apologize for my unprofessional comments. Blame it on a job where a bad week means people die.
David Carpenter, PA-C

OK I did get "Sassy" myself. I really did not mean to create an online fight, SO I apologize too

heated debate sure pass the popcorn.

As far as this debate I will come back and check but I posted what I wanted.

I think this does need to be discussed, Maybe you can change my mind?

allnurses Guide · Jul 10, 2008

I don't think anyone wants to change your mind.

I also don't know who you're arguing with - I have not seen anyone say that the DNP is equal to the MD education. Some have said the length of programs may be the same, but nobody that I recall said the content is equivalent.

You really don't need to keep repeating yourself.. we understand your point, and most agree and have no problems with that. I actually don't understand what you're all steamed about...