Hello. I am considering NP and PA school. I have a few years of experience as an ED Tech in a Level 3 Trauma Center in California (busy, but not too intense). Our ED is staffed with PA's no NP's.
I have a few questions about clinical differences between NP's and PA's. I know that PA's seem to have a great ability to work in surgery specialties like ortho, neuro, peds, and cardio surgery. They do pre and post surgery exams, order interprets tests, and prescribe meds (at least in 47-49 states). Are there any NP's on this forum who do this? Are there any in California who can comment?
Second. I know that most PA schools have a much longer clinical component than do NP schools. I have been told it is because NP's already have so much clinical experience as nurses. But can you really compare the two? In our ED, the nurses are not making differential diagnoses, determining etiology of disease, etc. etc., they are monitoring the pt's overall state and response to the treatment ordered by the Physician (or sometimes PA). Therefore, does this experience compare to the rigorous training PA's get in diagnosing?
Part of my interest in medicine is the actual procedures themselves. I want to do chest tubes, central lines, suturing, first assistant surgery, etc. etc. Are there any NP's out there who are doing this?
Finally, I know some people (including some nurses) who deride the "nursing diagnosis" concept. Can anyone offer up a brief rationale for how nursing diagnoses are of value to an NP in clinical practice?
You do realize that your state nursing boards defines "diagnosing, prescribing, and treating" as the practice of nursing, right?
The reason they do that is because if they defined it as the practice of medicine they would be sued by the state medical board for practicing medicine without a license.
So you can call it whatever you want, but your state nursing board defines what you are doing as "nursing" not medicine. They are very clear on that point.
Platon, you have a non point. The NP can diagnosis, prescribe and treat a patient. Does it matter what you call it ? Does it bother you that Nurse Practitioners perform in the manner that they are allowed to perform in ? What difference does it matter what governing authority authorizes what as long as it legal and good for the patient ?
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Nurse practitioners can definitely open independent clinics.
*** Maybe so but with the exception of a very few highly motivated and talented individual NPs and PAs who in their right mind would want to? Opening independent clinics is a business venture with patient care a small subset of daily duties and witch PAs and NPs have no training.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Actually that is not true. I am in the graduate program at UMASS -Worcester, and if you are an RN with an ADN you can enter the MSN program at UMASS-Worcester without first getting your BSN as long as you take 1 or 2 extra classes (once in the MSN program) concerning Community Health Nursing and Ethics/Legal aspects. It's right in our course catalog. Just look at our web site www.umassmed.edu I think that no one can make general statements about anything related to nursing, grad school programs, etc...because there are always exceptions. Just a thought. :)
*** Yes and Umass isn't even unique. I can think of a dozen schools off the top of my head that have ADN to MSN advanced practice programs in witch the nurse NEVER receives a BSN. University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Vanderbilt, Frontier School of Nursing and Midwifery, Umass (as mentioned) to name a few.
The only real exception is CRNA. ALL CRNA programs require their applicants to have a bachelors degree prior to the start of the CRNA program, though in many schools any bachelors degree will do, BSN not needed for lots of schools.
Witch leads me to the question I have asked before on Allnurses. WHat is the point of the BSN and it is obsolete?
I am having the same problem as the original poster. I am unsure of where to go from here. I know that I would like to be a PA or NP, but as a LPN, I am not sure which route to take. I have read every post on this thread and I have not found the answers to my questions.
I have worked with one physician in particular for quite some time. He has stated on many occassions that I should go back to school to be either a PA or NP.
Most of my experience is in LTC. I really enjoy working with this age group. I would like to be able to choose the career that will allow me to see pts (in conjunction with a physician) in this type of setting.
Are PA's allowed to do this? In Michigan, I know of a few places that NP's do this.
Any help in obtaining clarity would be greatly appreciated.
I am having the same problem as the original poster. I am unsure of where to go from here. I know that I would like to be a PA or NP, but as a LPN, I am not sure which route to take. I have read every post on this thread and I have not found the answers to my questions.
I have worked with one physician in particular for quite some time. He has stated on many occassions that I should go back to school to be either a PA or NP.
Most of my experience is in LTC. I really enjoy working with this age group. I would like to be able to choose the career that will allow me to see pts (in conjunction with a physician) in this type of setting.
Are PA's allowed to do this? In Michigan, I know of a few places that NP's do this.
Any help in obtaining clarity would be greatly appreciated.
PA's do work in LTC in both SNF and LTACs. Like most things its very dependent on the area and the physician population. The issue that SNFs have is that they are usually competing with hospitalists for the same PAs (skill set wise). They usually can't come up with the same salary offers which at least in the areas I've worked in is why you don't see many PAs in SNFs. There seem to be more PAs in LTACs.
I would defer to the NPs here on what certificate covers LTC. I've seen Geriatric NPs as well as ACNPs. There were also a few FNPs. Not really sure who claims this.
If you have a physician(s) that you have a relationship with that would consider hiring you then thats most of the battle whether NP or PA.
How long do you think if would take to become a PA with already having a MSN/Ed, BSN, RN and healthcare experience already? Do anyone know any online PA schools that would be a good route considering educational credentials already? I know most PA schools are 2 years in length. Do any one know a quicker route based on credentials already?
How long do you think if would take to become a PA with already having a MSN/Ed, BSN, RN and healthcare experience already? Do anyone know any online PA schools that would be a good route considering educational credentials already? I know most PA schools are 2 years in length. Do any one know a quicker route based on credentials already?
Thanks
There is only one program that is dramatically shorter. That is the Stanford program. It can be accomplished in as little as 16 months, however my understanding is that most students take longer with more clinical. The South Dakota program has traditionally been an RN only program. They now take non-RNs but that remains an option. This is as far as I know the only program that has a significant distance learning component. Also the UC Davis program still offers an FNP option in addition to the PA-C.
The reason that most PA programs have standardized around 2 years is that is the time it takes to get through all the information that ARC-PA requires. Since there is no consistent way to evaluate your experience or training there usually isn't much credit given for this. The credit comes from those programs that require medical experience. In my class we had a pharmacist and an IMG (practicing vascular surgeon in his home country). Neither of them got any credit for their previous education.
Thanks David, I am just researching right now. You mentioned UC Davis program, is there a website address and also for South Dakota program?
Here is the UC Davis info. One problem is that you have your MSN but the NP is from CSU Sacramento. I would guess that you would have to take enough coursework from them to get the degree which means you would have to take your MSN over. Not sure how that would work, but I would guess that they have dealt with this before.
charles drew and riverside community college are pretty short
There is only one program that is dramatically shorter. That is the Stanford program. It can be accomplished in as little as 16 months, however my understanding is that most students take longer with more clinical. The South Dakota program has traditionally been an RN only program. They now take non-RNs but that remains an option. This is as far as I know the only program that has a significant distance learning component. Also the UC Davis program still offers an FNP option in addition to the PA-C.
The reason that most PA programs have standardized around 2 years is that is the time it takes to get through all the information that ARC-PA requires. Since there is no consistent way to evaluate your experience or training there usually isn't much credit given for this. The credit comes from those programs that require medical experience. In my class we had a pharmacist and an IMG (practicing vascular surgeon in his home country). Neither of them got any credit for their previous education.
patrick1rn, MSN, RN, NP
420 Posts
Platon, you have a non point. The NP can diagnosis, prescribe and treat a patient. Does it matter what you call it ? Does it bother you that Nurse Practitioners perform in the manner that they are allowed to perform in ? What difference does it matter what governing authority authorizes what as long as it legal and good for the patient ?