CRNA Debate from www.studentdoctor.net

fergus51 · Jun 17, 2002

Hey Ten,

if you ever consider moving to Canada let me know! I couldn't agree more with what you said about the crappy hours and poor pay in residencies. I've been reading about some med students suing over this. Personally, I think it is absolutely unsafe to make a resident work for 36 hours straight.

As for the money, residents are a cheap source of labor, plain and simple. Just like nursing students in the old hospital schools seemed to be. Now some nurses will say you're lucky to get any money at all while you're training, but I think that's dumb. I think medical school should not require a 4 year undergraduate degree and it should be more clinical focused throughout (as McMaster University is starting to do here). The problem with becoming a doctor is you have to waste money on an undergraduate degree that may or may not have anything to do with medicine before going to med school, which is where some of that huge debt starts, and why it must seem like an insult to only get 30K a year as a resident.

alansmith52 · Jun 18, 2002

hmmmmm, I don't know I think that mr. sandman moron spells better than I.

on the other hand even if it were me I don't think I would admit it now. In light of the new feeling on this thread. wich is all fine and good.

alansmith52 · Jun 18, 2002

plus another embarrsing reason for nobody to ever fess up to being MR. Sandman is that whole stink made over the fictional "clavicula" after some study I have found that he probably meant valicula which makes the entire argument nill.

paramedicjedi · Jun 29, 2002

hi all,

let me begin by adding my 2 coins! I was a very succesful pre medder! 3.8 gpa, 9.6 Mcat, and chemistry and biology double major, and as evident by my title I am a NREMT paramedic(7 years). And drum roll please I have just been accepted to Nursing school. Why? Becuase I like pts. Granted I will never earn a giant salary in nursing and sure there is a great deal of in fighting within the nursing profession but it beats being part of an elitist cadre that has tried to corner the market on healthcare for a 100 generations.

and man to read nurses are dumb that really hacked me off!!

But everyone should not dispair just check out studentdoctor.net. most of the posts are pre meds whining about the "difficult" addmission standards and residents whining about how hard they work and how little they get paid! Well tough cookies, they chose that road so they should not slam the CRNA's for the sorry life of a resident. Folks we need doc's, we need nurses, we need CRNA's. We do not need this futile political debate hindering pt. care! I am not saying "why can't we all just get along "I am just saying chill out! Doc's do not just think nurses are dumb they

think everybody is dumb, even other Doc's! (look at how they reem DO's) I donot mean to generalize but Doc's are by far the most arrogant profession I have ever run across(this includes bouncers, SEALS, and firefighters no offense)! Certainly there are those who are humble by experience or nature but many are so angry and disillussioned(SP.) that they vent their anger constantly.

in closing to the moron that said Nurses are dumb 159 according Weschler want to compare brain pans or solve puzzles sometime? And another thing Nurses were in anesthesia first read a history book will ya'! And on a personal note my mother had three surgeries Breast Ca and one for a fractured vertebra and she had two CRNA's and two doc's she felt she got good tretment from all of them. But she said the CRNA's were more personable and relaxed. :mad: :mad:

London88 · Jun 30, 2002

Somebody earlier on hit it right on the nail when they described the residents as behaving like a bunch of kids. After reading their discussions it dawned on me that immaturity is obviously one of the requirements to participate in their forum. Comments such as "nurses are stupid" is demeaning to the person making the comment rather than to nurses, as it is an immature statement. The forum is not even worth entertaining. I will be more than happy to engage in a verbal debate in that forum when their is a significant increase in the maturity level"

dneill01 · Dec 30, 2003

I am an RN and find myself somewhat confused by your statements. I feel that your statements would be more valid stated as "SOME RNS" are ignorant/stupid Remember the definitions of both. But I think that we find that in both nursing and medicine. I can tolerate ignorant to a point and they will remain that way so long as physicians such as yourself view them as stupid. You want them to function at the level that you do (generally during your sleeping hours) and are angered when they do not but are also angered by those that do think for themselves. Both your anger and ignorance amazes me coming from such a highly educated individual. I want to encourage you to take a spelling class, repeat english 101 or review your posts for errors prior to posting. (I truely hope that you are more thorough with your anesthesia care.) You appear to be the "class A"pompous azz physician that every nurse dreads to deal with. Generally your type allows your arrogance to get in the way of your better judgement and as a result the patient suffers. Of course you then feel out of control so you look for someone else to blame for your shortcomings. Its a sad cascade of events. Thank God they are not all like you.

Now for the topic at hand. You are absolutely right, CRNAs are not as highly trained as MDAs. No doubt about it. My question is how much of that education is actually used in practice? (this is an honest question) CRNAs should never be used as a substitute for MDAs! They should be used to supplement an anesthesia practice. Many procedures that are performed are skills learned rather than scholar based. I sense that it is actually a money issue that bothers you as opposed to a true concern for patient safety and quality of care. The issue of quality of care has been a controversial topic for years with no truely revealing studies to date. Studies by the AANA can be viewed as biased as well as studies by the AMA. The only facts that we can look at is that Anesthesia care has improved over the past 20 years. To say that it is because of MDAs is once again truely arrogant. Is this to say that you ignore the role that better agents have played? Better monitoring equipment? Better diagnostics revealing underlying issues prior to the cases? Lighter patient loads and shorter hours (CRNAs have contributed to this) providing more time for MDAs to focus on more complicated cases? Better trained PACU and ICU nurses that recognize issues earlier? WOW, the list goes on and on.......

This should'nt be viewed as a competition issue it is a supply and demand issue plain and simple. Its the weekend and your commode goes out, you call the plumber Whats he/she charge you? Its simple supply and demand. There are more CRNAs today because Anesthesia residencies couldnt even be filled 10 years ago. Its a long road for an MDA and not many wanted to make that sacrifice.

Yes, many GPs hire PAs or NPs to work for them, is this because they are lazy? Maybe they have gotten over the arrogance of believing that they are so superior to everyone and they have come to the realization that parts of their job can be performed without the lengthy education that they had. Once again, supply and demand, think they would use these "paraprofessionals" if they could handle the patient load? Not likely. Should patients suffer because they cant get anesthesia care? MDAs are having to face what Nurses have been for years. BSN VS. diploma vs. ADN. Their jobs are the same their pay is similar but the training is different. One must take the time to look back and ask, what does it really take to do my job? Can someone with less education function near the same level? My bottom line is: CRNAs contribute to quality of care and efficiency of care. They should if possible function with MDA supervision/assistance. Halothane, you do your profession and physicians an injustice by posting such ignorant borborygmus statements without engaging your swollen head first.

RN, BSN CCRN

Passin' Gas · Dec 30, 2003

This thread died a graceful death (FINALLY) 18 months ago. Please, let it lie in peace.

PG

Montague · Dec 30, 2003

I couldn't agree more. Die thread die!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sheri257 · Dec 31, 2003

What's the big deal? I didn't know about this thread, but found it to be a fascinating read.

Kevin is always worth reading, and I also thought David's recent post made some excellent points that I didn't see from anyone else, and I read entire thread.

So shoot me for bumping up this thread, but there's a lot of valuable information here.

And BTW, this thread may be 18 months old, but they're STILL talking about this over at studentdoctors.net. The last post was just five days ago.

I say this not to fan the flames, but I personally would like to see continued CRNA input on this issue, since this seems to be an ongoing concern for some future doctors.

So what if it gets personal at times. It's still quite informative for those of us who are interested in learning about these issues.

Passin' Gas · Dec 31, 2003

On reconsideration of my earlier post, yes, there is valuable information in this thread.

The plea to let this thread lie in peace was a knee-jerk reaction to spending time reading the entire thread and tiring of the less mature comments that are in great abundance. The thought-provoking, insightful comments from Kevin and a few others do enlighten many aspects of this complex, and often emotionally charged, issue.

Overall, this forum does a great job of maintaining a professional demeanor in the discussions.

The second reason for my plea: dneill01 addressed his comments to 'halothane'. This individual is a participant on studentdoctor.net, not this forum (hopefully). Just hit me wrong. Guess my caffeine titers were low....

PG

hbscott · Dec 31, 2003

I just thought his post was a follow up of an albeit dated thread but still relevant topic. I can see how it can be hard for some not to respond in anger but the issues noted above still exists in anesthesia practice today. My hospital just got out of a very nasty "political" fight between the CRNA's and MDA's which resulted in several resignations and one firing.

Student Doctors (who may be immature, lack experience, etc.) are not the root cause of this "turf fight" in Anesthesia.

-HBS

Sheri257 · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by hbscott
My hospital just got out of a very nasty "political" fight between the CRNA's and MDA's which resulted in several resignations and one firing.

Student Doctors (who may be immature, lack experience, etc.) are not the root cause of this "turf fight" in Anesthesia.

-HBS

You mentioned this on the other thread. What happened? Are you at liberty to say?

I'm fascinated not just with the politics of this thing, but what's happening in the marketplace, so to speak, since that seems to be the bottom line here.