I've read and heard that eventually, 2011 - 2013, the entry level degree into Nurse Anesthsia will be a Doctorate (comparable to PharmD). Can anyone at this time offer any specifics on how this is to be implemented?
I was pretty excited about reading this. I hope that it is more than just a measure to appease egos and status and more of a venture into an advanced knowledge base (research and clinical).
Do what you want. This thread is tiring as is this subject. We all have said what our respective opinions are and there's no changing that. Some of you want to go around calling yourselves Drs then go ahead. I'm retiring from the forums. Take care.
Thanks for your input. Hopefully, you'll reconsider.
Do what you want. This thread is tiring as is this subject. We all have said what our respective opinions are and there's no changing that. Some of you want to go around calling yourselves Drs then go ahead. I'm retiring from the forums. Take care.
No offense, but it seems like you have something against nurses who are willing to tweek their career capabilities to the maximum. I thought you would be supportive of it since you already are a nurse. I understand nobody likes a change, but right now you make it sound like more of a moral or a personal issue. Just calm down, and think, why is it misleading for a CRNA or an NP who had 2 years of ICU experience and then 4 more years of training after their BSN to call theirselves Drs of Nursing(specialty) when others can. If we follow your philasophy all I know is we wont be moving forward, i'd say open up to the possibilites and welcome them since you are a nurse. I mean I can see where you'd be coming from if you were a resident or an MD, but right now you have to be on this side of the team, we shouldn't convince our own people, we need to educate the public and what you're saying is the public is dump and they can't remember anything, then why heck bother telling them anything right. I think there are over 30 steps in just taking BP, and 15 steps are informing the patients of every little thing you are doing. So patient education is very important. We can never have too many doctors or to many nurses. You see an LPN can call theirselves a Nurse, but then they refer to the title that also comes after their name, also same with RN's and same for all kind of doctors. CNA's can't call theirselves nurses because they're not a nurse. And CNAs cannot call theirselves Nurses unless they finish the proper nursing education.
So RN's can't call theirselves Dr nurses unless they finish the proper education in nursing and if you are not allowed to call yourself what you've achieved then what good is it.
"This is understandable. The NP role and the scope of practice for nurse practitioners continue to evolve, leading nurse practice acts and specialty organization statements to identify only broad categories of procedures needed for practice. In 2002, the National Organization of Nurse Practitioner Faculties (NONPF) noted that managed care organizations would demand greater competence levels in nurse practitioners, but it listed only five procedures necessary for NP education: suturing, minor lesion removal, splinting, microscopy and Pap testing.
Lack of experience with procedures can be a drawback for NPs in the job market. Not only do NPs need a broad repertoire of skills to work effectively with patients, but market competition demands greater levels of competency in new NP graduates.2 Market trends point to the need for cost containment, and nurse practitioners need more skills to meet patient needs without referring
Nurse practitioner programs are now recognizing the importance of teaching procedures and are incorporating basic medical procedures, such as suturing, biopsy and casting, into their curricula. However, nurse practitioners are performing many other procedures in ambulatory care settings.
Some NPs are finding that they must seek additional training and experience to allow them to perform advanced clinical procedures to further expand their scope of practice.3 Continuing education programs are likely to play a key role in preparing nurse practitioners for increasing professional responsibilities." (Colyar, NP & Ehrhardt, NP)
There is a competition in the market that are from PA's and AA's and if we get more education and spand our scope of practice independently, of course we would lead the way, and to get more education it's 4 more years of schooling after 2 years in ICU and a BSN. Hey, we have to leave the competition behind and this is one step that we can that the competitors can't take.
i believe that there are a few people who have an issue with what the term "doctor"means... i am in complete agreeance that one should not mislead others in what their title or purpose is - however...
MD's are clinical doctorates .... they get the title in relation to the time they put in (which is vastly different know as compared to 10 yrs ago due to stricter regulations on time the programs are allowed to pile on them)
they are trained in medicine
CRNA's put in enough time in most programs to acheive this same level of doctorate - of course it is in nurse anesthesia - but why should CRNA's be jipped a title because some people have hang-ups about what "doctor" means???
alll doctors but in different practices, trained differently.
it is a level of training NOT SPECIFIC TO MEDICINE!
therefore - why should nursing not have it's doctorate.
the anesthesia schools surely require the time - they are only trying to give us what we are putting the time in for.
also - one poster stated something to the fact that the training for MD's and CRNA's is vastly different and that the MD's have it harder.
I beg to differ. first, it depends on your definition of hard. most nurses put in at least 4-5 yrs of hard, difficult, underpaid, underappreciated, crappy hours of work before beginning their advanced training. residents just do it during their study. it is not harder - just different - i think this is a point that needs to be made.
also - one poster stated something to the fact that the training for MD's and CRNA's is vastly different and that the MD's have it harder.
I beg to differ. first, it depends on your definition of hard. most nurses put in at least 4-5 yrs of hard, difficult, underpaid, underappreciated, crappy hours of work before beginning their advanced training. residents just do it during their study. it is not harder - just different - i think this is a point that needs to be made.
For the first 4 years, Nursing School is harder. After the first four years Meidcal school gets harder because they go on for another 4 years. So it sort of evens out, but people only remember what they want. And when this 2 years becomes 4 years, school duration will even out and don't forget the two years of ICU experience which will closely even out to the school duration of an MDA w/o the fellowship. SCHOOL DURATION (spelled it out).
No offense, but it seems like you have something against nurses who are willing to tweek their career capabilities to the maximum. I thought you would be supportive of it since you already are a nurse. I understand nobody likes a change, but right now you make it sound like more of a moral or a personal issue. Just calm down, and think, why is it misleading for a CRNA or an NP who had 2 years of ICU experience and then 4 more years of training after their BSN to call theirselves Drs of Nursing(specialty) when others can. If we follow your philasophy all I know is we wont be moving forward, i'd say open up to the possibilites and welcome them since you are a nurse. I mean I can see where you'd be coming from if you were a resident or an MD, but right now you have to be on this side of the team, we shouldn't convince our own people, we need to educate the public and what you're saying is the public is dump and they can't remember anything, then why heck bother telling them anything right. I think there are over 30 steps in just taking BP, and 15 steps are informing the patients of every little thing you are doing. So patient education is very important. We can never have too many doctors or to many nurses. You see an LPN can call theirselves a Nurse, but then they refer to the title that also comes after their name, also same with RN's and same for all kind of doctors. CNA's can't call theirselves nurses because they're not a nurse. And CNAs cannot call theirselves Nurses unless they finish the proper nursing education.
So RN's can't call theirselves Dr nurses unless they finish the proper education in nursing and if you are not allowed to call yourself what you've achieved then what good is it.
Maxs
So, you are of the opinion that a clinical doctorate is needed in order for the CRNA profession to evolve. You make several good points, in terms of the usage of the term "Dr.", but my question is, under current scope of CRNA practice, how will pursuing a clinical doctorate enhance clinical skills or knowledge base?
Should these degrees be standardized across the board , in terms of context, i.e., clinically based as opposed to theory/research based, to include dissertation (although clinical suggest the lack thereof, but you never know the liberties some insittutions will take)?
So, you are of the opinion that a clinical doctorate is needed in order for the CRNA profession to evolve. You make several good points, in terms of the usage of the term "Dr.", but my question is, under current scope of CRNA practice, how will pursuing a clinical doctorate enhance clinical skills or knowledge base?
Should these degrees be standardized across the board , in terms of context, i.e., clinically based as opposed to theory/research based, to include dissertation (although clinical suggest the lack thereof, but you never know the liberties some insittutions will take)?
Aha, if you remember first, it should not be standardized due to the great market demand, rural areas and etc, because it can cause a lot of problems. As of now, it should be optional, but then it should be highly recognized or recognition needs to paid to those who have become ones. And don't give me that phrase used by the elites "a title does not determine who are, or you love doing what you do regardless of how much it pays." Hey Even teachers don't buy that anymore. Everything has ups and downs, but if you have to opportunity to go up, don't wait or come down, you must advance all you can. Again this is not supposed to be Doctorate in Nursing theory. It's in CRNA, and more intensive CRNA related material. For exampel when you take your first semester of chemistry I or physics I, the second semester is just the same thing somethings changed a little, but more intense and that's what this docotrates should be. For instructor wise, not every school will open the doors to such opportunities at once, so it is going to take a while is it will progress. In other words, there are schools that can afford to have such programs, and those graduates from such schools can teach at the other schools. Under the current scope, nothing is wrong with, it's just that not everybody wants to be limited, some people are going all the way and we need to pay that recognition to them. Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I can see that some people dont want this field expanding. It's What about the psychologist in New Mexico who can prescripe drugs and some of the states who are adapting these rules, what about maxillofacial surgeon who can perform plastic surgery, or the podiatrist in California who can do partial amputation? We are not the only people in these turf wars.
Yes, there is a new focus on doctoral prepared CRNA's. If it makes us better clinicians, so be it. I personally believe it is always wise to follow the money and decide for yourself, who the winner will be when it comes to new proposals such as this one. The last I heard, there is a shortage of CRNA's. Extra time spent in school is going to help this in what way? It sounds like to me, consumers will be the losers here. One of the highlights of our profession has always been that we are quality trained professionals at a significantly reduced cost.
Some folks will try and try to defend their position as a CRNA by claiming they are equivalent to an MDA. The titles alone should tell any lay individual you are comparing apples and oranges. One is a nurse and one is a doctor. It is that simple. If you want to be called doctor, for no other reason than to annoy your co-worker, you should be ashamed. Nurse Anesthesia is a noble profession. For those of you out there, who feel the need to continue defending your title, you may have lost sight of what your profession is all about, or maybe you are to wrapped up in feeling important and having your head enlarged by believing you should be called Doctor."
We are nurses. If you introduce yourself to a patient as Dr. whoever, you are misleading a person who has just instantaneously trusted a total stranger with their life.
All of you know their are some CRNA's who are much better clinicians than some of the MD co-workers, and vice-versa.
For those of you who need that title to feel appreciated, I hope and pray you are never at the head of the table I myself or anyone I know is on.
A PhD may be postitive for our profession, I just hope it is not implemented for the wrong reasons.
Not everyone who is called a doctor goes to medical school or went to medical school.
Maxs
we all know that....i think the poster knows that for sure
i think the poster was relating to a clinical setting, probably O.R.
DUH!
If you introduce yourself to a patient as Dr. whoever, you are misleading a person who has just instantaneously trusted a total stranger with their life.
No offense, but it seems like you have something against nurses who are willing to tweek their career capabilities to the maximum. I thought you would be supportive of it since you already are a nurse. I understand nobody likes a change, but right now you make it sound like more of a moral or a personal issue. Just calm down, and think, why is it misleading for a CRNA or an NP who had 2 years of ICU experience and then 4 more years of training after their BSN to call theirselves Drs of Nursing(specialty) when others can. If we follow your philasophy all I know is we wont be moving forward, i'd say open up to the possibilites and welcome them since you are a nurse. I mean I can see where you'd be coming from if you were a resident or an MD, but right now you have to be on this side of the team, we shouldn't convince our own people, we need to educate the public and what you're saying is the public is dump and they can't remember anything, then why heck bother telling them anything right. I think there are over 30 steps in just taking BP, and 15 steps are informing the patients of every little thing you are doing. So patient education is very important. We can never have too many doctors or to many nurses. You see an LPN can call theirselves a Nurse, but then they refer to the title that also comes after their name, also same with RN's and same for all kind of doctors. CNA's can't call theirselves nurses because they're not a nurse. And CNAs cannot call theirselves Nurses unless they finish the proper nursing education.
So RN's can't call theirselves Dr nurses unless they finish the proper education in nursing and if you are not allowed to call yourself what you've achieved then what good is it.
Yes, there is a new focus on doctoral prepared CRNA's. If it makes us better clinicians, so be it. I personally believe it is always wise to follow the money and decide for yourself, who the winner will be when it comes to new proposals such as this one. The last I heard, there is a shortage of CRNA's. Extra time spent in school is going to help this in what way? It sounds like to me, consumers will be the losers here. One of the highlights of our profession has always been that we are quality trained professionals at a significantly reduced cost.
Some folks will try and try to defend their position as a CRNA by claiming they are equivalent to an MDA. The titles alone should tell any lay individual you are comparing apples and oranges. One is a nurse and one is a doctor. It is that simple. If you want to be called doctor, for no other reason than to annoy your co-worker, you should be ashamed. Nurse Anesthesia is a noble profession. For those of you out there, who feel the need to continue defending your title, you may have lost sight of what your profession is all about, or maybe you are to wrapped up in feeling important and having your head enlarged by believing you should be called Doctor."
We are nurses. If you introduce yourself to a patient as Dr. whoever, you are misleading a person who has just instantaneously trusted a total stranger with their life.
All of you know their are some CRNA's who are much better clinicians than some of the MD co-workers, and vice-versa.
For those of you who need that title to feel appreciated, I hope and pray you are never at the head of the table I myself or anyone I know is on.
A PhD may be postitive for our profession, I just hope it is not implemented for the wrong reasons.
Lambert5883
135 Posts
Thanks for your input. Hopefully, you'll reconsider.