Using same syringes all day

Specialties CRNA

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OK, I have wondered about this for many years, and wonder what the current thinking is.

Wherever I have worked as an OR nurse, since the early '80s, anesthesia draws up their meds in the a.m.--their succs, their vec, their roc, diprivan, fentanyl, Versed, etc--and uses the same syringes all day long from patient to patient.

This was true in the '80s when we used Pentothal and when we still utilized the amber IV ports that required needle access. They also used the same needles all day--just stuck the needle, full or partway full syringe attatched, back into the multidose vials between uses. We usually put a stopcock on for the Pentothal and the succs; nowadays, of course, the tubing comes in with a built in dual stopcock for the Diprivan and the succs, and the other meds if desired, or they are infused through other ports, which are now needleless.

Also, if they prepared a succs drip in the morning, they used it all day long, from patient to patient. I can even remember other anesthesia providers popping their heads in and saying, "Can I borrow your succs drip?" and using it on THEIR patient, rather than preparing a new one.

My question is, is this practice considered acceptable nowadays? Should it even have been considered acceptable then? In today's litigious society, it seems that that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

I can understand the rationale, I think--since they are injecting directly into a port, and not aspirating, (they also are not aspirating from the vial; just drawing up the medication directly) there is little likelihood of contaminating the syringe of medication with a blood borne pathogen such as HIV or Hepatitis--or, is there? What if there WAS a microscopic bit of blood in the tubing that backed up into the port or stopcock, perhaps not visible as a droplet of blood but enough to contaminate the syringe containing the medication (i.e., the succs) with Hepatitis? And thus, potentially, spreading it from patient to patient?

Same thing with the drip--it is being plugged directly into a port, and the likelihood of blood flowing back into that port to contaminate the tubing (which will be reused) is minimal--or, is it? Seems to me that ANY possibility, however remote, is too much of a risk to take.

I have always worked at institutions affiliated with prestigious medical schools and anesthesia programs, so I have thought, well, if THEY do it, it must be accepted practice--but then again, you would NEVER see such a practice by an RN in the ER or the ICU--i.e., using the same Dopamine or Lidocaine drip over and over, rather than wasting it; or using a full syringe, say, of Dilantin for multi patient use until it is exhausted . Are we as RNs overly cautious, or are the anesthesia providers I have described overly reckless? These are outstanding anesthesiologists and CRNAs I am describing here and ones that are passionate about optimal patient care, so obviously they consider the practice a low or no risk one.

Thank you one and all for your thoughts.

OK, I have wondered about this for many years, and wonder what the current thinking is.

Wherever I have worked as an OR nurse, since the early '80s, anesthesia draws up their meds in the a.m.--their succs, their vec, their roc, diprivan, fentanyl, Versed, etc--and uses the same syringes all day long from patient to patient.

This was true in the '80s when we used Pentothal and when we still utilized the amber IV ports that required needle access. They also used the same needles all day--just stuck the needle, full or partway full syringe attatched, back into the multidose vials between uses. We usually put a stopcock on for the Pentothal and the succs; nowadays, of course, the tubing comes in with a built in dual stopcock for the Diprivan and the succs, and the other meds if desired, or they are infused through other ports, which are now needleless.

Also, if they prepared a succs drip in the morning, they used it all day long, from patient to patient. I can even remember other anesthesia providers popping their heads in and saying, "Can I borrow your succs drip?" and using it on THEIR patient, rather than preparing a new one.

My question is, is this practice considered acceptable nowadays? Should it even have been considered acceptable then? In today's litigious society, it seems that that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

I can understand the rationale, I think--since they are injecting directly into a port, and not aspirating, (they also are not aspirating from the vial; just drawing up the medication directly) there is little likelihood of contaminating the syringe of medication with a blood borne pathogen such as HIV or Hepatitis--or, is there? What if there WAS a microscopic bit of blood in the tubing that backed up into the port or stopcock, perhaps not visible as a droplet of blood but enough to contaminate the syringe containing the medication (i.e., the succs) with Hepatitis? And thus, potentially, spreading it from patient to patient?

Same thing with the drip--it is being plugged directly into a port, and the likelihood of blood flowing back into that port to contaminate the tubing (which will be reused) is minimal--or, is it? Seems to me that ANY possibility, however remote, is too much of a risk to take.

I have always worked at institutions affiliated with prestigious medical schools and anesthesia programs, so I have thought, well, if THEY do it, it must be accepted practice--but then again, you would NEVER see such a practice by an RN in the ER or the ICU--i.e., using the same Dopamine or Lidocaine drip over and over, rather than wasting it; or using a full syringe, say, of Dilantin for multi patient use until it is exhausted . Are we as RNs overly cautious, or are the anesthesia providers I have described overly reckless? These are outstanding anesthesiologists and CRNAs I am describing here and ones that are passionate about optimal patient care, so obviously they consider the practice a low or no risk one.

Thank you one and all for your thoughts.

I think that it is interesting that you would suggest that every anesthesia provider would engage in this practice. It is true that recently ONE practitioner was doing this, which contributed to a hepatitis infection spread. I'm a bit concerned about what your intentions are, and believe that your characterizations are exaggerated.

I think that it is interesting that you would suggest that every anesthesia provider would engage in this practice. It is true that recently ONE practitioner was doing this, which contributed to a hepatitis infection spread. I'm a bit concerned about what your intentions are, and believe that your characterizations are exaggerated.

I don't think EVERY anesthesia provider does this, and I'll bet almost none do it now. That being said, I can tell you it was very common 20+ years ago in many facilities around the country.

Just in the last year in Fremont, Ne an oncology clinic was using the same syringes. The Dr. left the United States and has charges pending. I understand the RN has lost her liscense. Many outbreaks of hepatitis and some deaths directly related to this. Why risk using the same syringe all day? If it was your loved one how would you feel about the syringe not being changed? We as nurses have the control and have a responsibility to make certain we are doing all we can as humans and professionals to prevent and spread of pathogens.

The hepatitis outbreak (100 and counting) was the result of using a liter bag of fluid to draw flushes. The reuse of syringes or tubing or needles is indefensible because the CDC and OSHA specifically disband this practice. The best rational not to reuse syringes is that technically a syringe is not sterile once the plunger is depressed. Look at the packaging, they all read single use only.

These people should be in jail. Years ago, I had a DON that actually encouraged reusing needles.

Check out some of these links, interesting stuff out there.

http://www.asahq.org/Newsletters/2002/12_02/greene.html

http://www.aana.com/press/2002/111302.asp

http://www.aegis.com/news/ads/2003/AD032201.html

http://www.news-star.com/stories/120802/hea_14.shtml

I think there's more out there, but this is a good start for anyone who'd be interested. Science, human interest, we've got it all. Enjoy.

TD

Thank you for the links.
These people should be in jail. Years ago, I had a DON that actually encouraged reusing needles.

25-30 years ago, there was no AIDS to worry about. Hepatitis was around, but wasn't thought to be a big concern. I know some old ENT surgeons who did tonsillectomies without gloves their entire careers (sterile or otherwise). There was no concept of "universal precautions". I don't know any anesthetists who routinely wore gloves for anything. Gloves for starting IV's? Nope. It just simply was not the way things were back then.

I'm not excusing the behavior, at least as far as reusing syringes - it was wrong then as it is now. I'm just trying to provide a little historical background to the mindset back then.

25-30 years ago, there was no AIDS to worry about. Hepatitis was around, but wasn't thought to be a big concern. I know some old ENT surgeons who did tonsillectomies without gloves their entire careers (sterile or otherwise). There was no concept of "universal precautions". I don't know any anesthetists who routinely wore gloves for anything. Gloves for starting IV's? Nope. It just simply was not the way things were back then.

I'm not excusing the behavior, at least as far as reusing syringes - it was wrong then as it is now. I'm just trying to provide a little historical background to the mindset back then.

The year that I'm referencing is 1987-AIDS was prevalent then.

OK, let me add to the question. Once upon a time, within the last couple of years, I had a co-worker who would draw up a 20cc syringe of propofol for use with endo MAC procedures. This co-worker would put the syringe in a pump, connect tubing from the syringe to the patient's flowing IV line, and let 'er rip. When finished with one procedure, the co-worker would disconnect the tubing and throw it out, then attach a new tubing to the same syringe and use it for the next patient. I talked to this person about it a few times, but they felt the procedure they were following was safe, and saving the hospital money, since the procedures often only took 5 minutes. To this person's thinking, one syringe and one 20cc bottle of propofol could be used for two or even three patients.

Clearly, I think this is wrong as two left shoes, but my co-worker could not be convinced. Any thoughts?

Kevin McHugh

OK, let me add to the question. Once upon a time, within the last couple of years, I had a co-worker who would draw up a 20cc syringe of propofol for use with endo MAC procedures. This co-worker would put the syringe in a pump, connect tubing from the syringe to the patient's flowing IV line, and let 'er rip. When finished with one procedure, the co-worker would disconnect the tubing and throw it out, then attach a new tubing to the same syringe and use it for the next patient. I talked to this person about it a few times, but they felt the procedure they were following was safe, and saving the hospital money, since the procedures often only took 5 minutes. To this person's thinking, one syringe and one 20cc bottle of propofol could be used for two or even three patients.

Clearly, I think this is wrong as two left shoes, but my co-worker could not be convinced. Any thoughts?

Kevin McHugh

I too hava a coworker that does the same thing. Poor practice I believe.

I think that it is interesting that you would suggest that every anesthesia provider would engage in this practice. It is true that recently ONE practitioner was doing this, which contributed to a hepatitis infection spread. I'm a bit concerned about what your intentions are, and believe that your characterizations are exaggerated.

Huh?! What? I think maybe you misunderstood my post, and I certainly have no secondary agenda! Nowhere did I say or insinuate that "every" anesthesia provider I work with in today's environment (I do registry and travel OR nursing, as well as IV and pump teaching, in many states) did this.

I think if you reread my original post you will understand. I was referencing the 80's, and even part of the '90s, when it was very common--not as common as in the '80s, but fairly common. I am unaware of any hospital acquired infections from these practices at any facility where I have worked or taught--that's not to say they didn't occur. I was not aware of the referenced hepatitis outbreak until I read about it here.

Now, flash forward to the 21st century. I still see it done. Not consistently; not by everyone, but I still see it done. The borrowing of a succs drip (to be returned and used on various patients until empty) is one I have seen done, oh, as recently as the time I posted my original question.

Oh, and putting extension tubing from a propofol syringe pump onto a patient's IV, then just discarding the extension tubing after use and using new extension tubing, but the same propofol with the same syringe pump tubing? Or not using extension tubing, but just changing the syringe pump tubing between patients? Still see that fairly frequently. Again--not by "every" anesthesia provider, and not universally. But--frequently enough to wonder where people are getting the idea that it is STILL acceptable.

But, I posted to get opinions as to what other folks thought of what I was witnessing, and if they were still seeing it, too. I haven't posted to or read this thread in a while, so was surprised to see your comment. Mostly I was just interested in how other facilities do things, and their rationales for doing them that way.

If you are looking for secondary agendas, InterestedRN, you won't find them in anything I post. LOL!

OK, here is another question--do any of your facilities wash and reuse circuit tubing? I sometimes work at a place that still does--I know they did all throughout the '90s, when I was staff there; and when I work there occasionally now through registry, now, I still see it done. Is this type of recycling OK in today's environment, with SARS and community acquired pneumonia? The rationale I heard in the '90s was that there is one way valve on the tubing, so it all goes to the patient, therefore nothing (i.e., waste anesthetic gases) is expired that would "contaminate" the tubing....what say you all?

Specializes in NICU, Infection Control.

Kevin, you are absolutely right! Tejas had some good references. At some point in time, trying to convince someone to change their practice, no matter how outdated, becomes unproductive. TPTB need to write a policy stating the correct practice, and the disciplinary consequences of not following that policy clearly spelled out. After that, your co-worker is out on a limb from which I would not want to hang.

Huh?! What? I think maybe you misunderstood my post, and I certainly have no secondary agenda! Nowhere did I say or insinuate that "every" anesthesia provider I work with in today's environment (I do registry and travel OR nursing, as well as IV and pump teaching, in many states.)

I think if you reread my original post you will understand. I was referencing the 80's, and even part of the '90s, when it was very common--not as common as in the '80s, but fairly common. I am unaware of any hospital acquired infections from these practices at any facility where I have worked or taught--that's not to say they didn't occur. I was not aware of the referenced hepatitis outbreak until I read about it here.

Now, flash forward to the 21st century. I still see it done. Not consistently; not by everyone, but I still see it done. The borrowing of a succs drip (to be returned and used on various patients until empty) is one I have seen done, oh, as recently as the time I posted my original question.

Oh, and putting extension tubing from a propofol syringe pump onto a patient's IV, then just discarding the extension tubing after use and using new extension tubing, but the same propofol with the same syringe pump tubing? Or not using extension tubing, but just changing the syringe pump tubing between patients? Still see that fairly frequently. Again--not by "every" anesthesia provider, and not universally. But--frequently enough to wonder where people are getting the idea that it is STILL acceptable.

But, I posted to get opinions as to what other folks thought of what I was witnessing, and if they were still seeing it, too. I haven't posted to or read this thread in a while, so was surprised to see your comment. Mostly I was just interested in how other facilities do things, and their rationales for doing them that way.

If you are looking for secondary agendas, InterestedRN, you won't find them in anything I post. LOL!

OK, here is another question--do any of your facilities wash and reuse circuit tubing? I sometimes work at a place that still does--I know they did all throughout the '90s, when I was staff there; and when I work there occasionally now through registry, now, I still see it done. Is this type of recycling OK in today's environment, with SARS and community acquired pneumonia? The rationale I heard in the '90s was that there is one way valve on the tubing, so it all goes to the patient, therefore nothing (i.e., waste anesthetic gases) is expired that would "contaminate" the tubing....what say you all?

Thank you for clarifying your experience and position. What you describe is clearly sub-standard care and should not be acceptable practice in ANY health care providers approach to patients. Hopefully, your question will raise awareness, and (further) prevent this from happening.

Let's face it, the only ones that are going to stop this kind of thing from happening are US.

Thanks again,

Interested

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