There is a thread below that advises NOT telling your instrutors while working on.. - page 3

your BSN about your ultimate desire to be a CRNA. It is said that some will "frown" upon the ambition. My question is why would they do this and can they really hurt me if I state my intentions of... Read More

  1. by   Roland
    argument as to why women are preferentially hired in OB over men. However, this doesn't speak to the issue of discrimination within nursing educational programs and why it should occur. In addition, the fact that such attitudes exist doesn't make them correct or acceptible. I have relatives who will not dine at establishments frequented by minorities. Well, I suppose its their right to feel that way, but as a consequence of those attitudes I refuse to dine with with THEM.

    On a more practical level I would appreciate any advice from males (or females who have seen male nurses be successful) for "surviving" my OB rotation in clinicals. I am dreading it already just from the experiences of others that I have read here. Although, I am not easily discouraged (or to put it another way if stubborness were intelligence I would be Einstein) some of the experiences related on this site seem to pose an extraordinary challenge!

    Much Thanks,
  2. by   Lacey
    Roland, do not despair! I have worked with male nurses and I think if you are a good nurse, you will earn and receive the respect of coworkers and patients. I have had many little old ladies request the young male nurses after they had received top notch care from them. The only thing I have seen are from two ER nurses that always ask that a female nurse be pulled from the floor to straight cath or put a foley in a young female patient. These two nurses always claim it was the patient's request but when I get down there the patient denies that they had requested a female nurse. I think the male ER nurses are the ones with a problem!
    Last edit by Lacey on Aug 26, '02
  3. by   Notanurse
    Seems like the key to getting advanced degrees is to keep you mouth closed about any plans....Well how do you stay quite when you want your employer to pay for a BSN? I think most hospitals now pay for the nurse education?
  4. by   kmchugh
    Originally posted by OldTimeNurse
    I have been a nursing instructor for over ten years and havn't witnessed anything remotely like what is being described above. We don't care about your views (unless you're expousing them when you should be learning) nor do we care about your amibitions (except to help you achieve them).....
    Yadda yadda yadda. I just have to say this. This really torques me. Oldtimenurse, whoever she is, steps in, hurls a few insults, then, steps out. Either does not have the courage to respond to those who have called her on her nonsense, or doesn't care, which is worse. Step in, insult people, then never look to see what impact your comments have had. Either way, she appears to be a coward.

    Sorry to all, I just had to get this off my chest.

    Kevin McHugh
  5. by   Roland
    regarding the "guy" in your class who didn't make it. I'm espcially interested because you said it was the OB rotation that spelled his end. I understand you probably don't know the exact reasons. However, I curious what you witnesses when working with him that classified him in your mind as not good "nurse material".

    One hypothesis I have might be that he was still "climbing his learning curve". Consider that in my class MOST of the other students have had CONSIDERABLE experience with nursing either as nurses aids or even as LPN's in several cases. Most of the remaining have had close family members who were nurses. Since, I haven't had this back ground I expect a much more steep initial "climb' and have no doubt that I might initailly appear incompetant. However, I am equally confident that I will excel once I have learned the basic "practical" skills. Just curious if this could have been the case in his situation.

  6. by   Dr. Kate
    I don't know what year Quigley graduated from MSMC but I was there in the dark ages when Sr. Calista Roy was still chair of the dept., and the concept of a person "not being good nurse material" was alive and well.
    I hate say this and potentially start something, and as a good Roy Adaptation model nurse I should have better reasons than I'm going to give, but I will forge ahead--given some of the people I've seen come trhough and out of nursing programs lately, there are people who are not nurse material. It would be a service to them and the profession to ask them to pursue other career opportunities early on.

    It's sad to say that it is often best to keep your own counsel when in any kind of academic program, or job. But it's true.
  7. by   Roland
    specifics as to what you (and Qwiigley) observed to inform you that someone is/was not good nurse material. With any profession or occupation some will have more "natural talent" than others. In high school I was told that with my flat feet, ungainly stride, and excess weight that I had absolutely no business running cross county. Indeed, my first year I was by far THE SLOWEST person on the team often taking up to 25 minutes to run the 5K distance. I was so bad that the coach wouldn't let me practice with the team because he said I was a distraction to the faster runners! Yet with much practice and dedication (running year round not just in season) I became THE BEST person on the team for three years. Indeed, I came quite close to breaking the school record on occasion and brought my average time down to below 16 minutes for the same distance.

    Last year my chemistry professor told me of how one of his best friends in college was told he had no proclivity for science, and certainly not Chemistry. Undetterred, his friend persisted earning not only a PHd. BUT ALSO winning a Nobel Prize! These stories (and MANY others like them that I'm sure other readers could add) simply illustrate that natural proclivities are but a PART of the equation. Some of the most successful people in the history of the world were at one time labeled as "not fit" or as having "low aptitudes. It is difficult for me to believe that someone's ultimate potential could be so quickly accessed early on during clinicals except in extreme cases.

    In addition, I think that the accessment that someone "is not suited" for a job or profession SOMETIMES indicates hidden prejudice. I can recall a job I once held where a black gentleman had been hired into what was otherwise an all white management team in a mostly white town (I was an assistant manager at this establishment). Many people said he didn't "fit in" and wasn't cut out for the job. Well, at least from my vantage point he was an EXCELLANT manager, and quite friendly when offered the chance to be so. However, most people seemed to shun him from the start. I can't say he didn't contribute to the situation by being somewhat introverted, but I think it was mostly a matter of people seeing what THEY WANTED or EXPECTED to see. In the end he quit. Heck, we live in a day and age where we are expected to make "reasonable accomadations" even to those with significant disabilities (not just a lack of talent) and yet you seem to be advocating exclusion based upon what are often expedient, vague accessments ( I do think such laws are a good thing by the way ALTHOUGH THEY CAN be abused!).

    I would be espcially insulted by such a specious accessment in the face of substancial accomplishment. Consider, that many nursing programs are quite competitive and to even be admitted one must usually prove themselves at least an above average student (in my class the cut off was a 3.2 GPA). Furthermore, one should be mindful of how diverse nursing work can be. One need only to survey the plethora of discussion catagories on this site to appreciate this fact. My point of course is that someone who has substancially below aptitude for ONE TYPE of nursing (such as OB) might have a much HIGHER aptitude for a different aspect within the field (say CRNA, or administration, or home health care ect).

    Now if someone displays a negative ATTITUDE that is another matter (I would lump under a negative attitude a failure to attend class, prepare, working to improve ect). In addition, I don't advocate low standards. If someone truly can't measure up to even the minimum objective standards after what would be considered a reasonable period of time then by all means they shouldn't pass. However, I am concerned that everyone be given the same OPPORTUNITY to succeed without being burdened by labels such as "not cut out" for the job even while they are relatively new students.
    Last edit by Roland on Aug 27, '02
  8. by   meandragonbrett
    Originally posted by Lacey
    I have to admit I have mixed feelings when I hear a young potential nursing student tell me that they want to become a CRNA. The number one driving force for these kids is the income
    I disagree with you on that statement. How do you know that everybody that wants to be a CRNA is doing it for the money? Have you researched it? I have people tell me all the time that I want to be a CRNA b\c I'm 17 and I'm only seeing the $$$ signs. I'm sick of hearing that! I just ignore them. That's not true, if my motivation was to make money in life, I could choose other fields where I could make just as much money, possibly more with less schooling. That's just my look on it. I am not doing it for the money and how can YOU judge me or anybody else on their motives unless they have specifically expressed them to you? As far back as I can remember, I've ALWAYS wanted to do anesthesia, I can't see myself doing anything else. <~~Steps off of Soap Box~~>

    Have a great night!
    Last edit by meandragonbrett on Aug 27, '02
  9. by   Roland
    with regard to their occupation. However, it is my assertion that money is THE PRIMARY motivation for most people in working. Basic economics teaches that money is how society tells someone the value of their service (I've often wondered why more BSN programs don't offer the option of taking ECON instead of Sociology). Furthermore, I would argue (as would history) that this is THE BEST way for society to be organized (as compared to the alternative which is socialism).

    This does not mean one should be given to greed, and or avarice. Instead, one should consider the fundamental importance of money with regard to mutiple aspects of their life. Many people who say "I don't do it for the money" would balk (as perhaps well they should) if they were told that their job hence forward would pay significantly less. Of course there are exceptions.

    For me it comes down to the simple philosophy that I want to "work to live well", not "live to work well". Of course the thing that makes the free market system so effective is that I MUST accomphish the latter if I hope to experience the former!
    Last edit by Roland on Aug 27, '02
  10. by   Dr. Kate
    Okay, not nurse material: comes to clinical unprepared, comes to class unprepared, refuses to listen to instruction in how to do things and persists in doing them "her way" then blames instructors and floor nurses for not teaching her the right way to do things. Additionally, (and I tend to think this defines why she went to nursing school) whenever youngish, available doctor from her homeland is on unit she only has eyes for him (and he notices her but has a mother who would object to this young woman on the basis of her religion). This is one of the more obvious of the type.

    I am not saying that there are not exceptions to someone who deosn't seem suited to a field, I personally caused great grief to my dissertation advisor, the chair of the PhD committee and anyone else who mattered because I persisted in working 3 jobs instead of "cooperating" with the school's notion of dedicated scholar who maybe only works one job, part time. I offered to let one of them adopt me so I could only work PT but no one took me up on my offer. (There are times when I haven't got the sense to keep my mouth shut.)

    I thoroughly agree with you that economics are the reason most people work. I went into nursing because I needed a salable skill and typing class gave me headaches. I found nursing suited me well and was a good fit.
    There are only a very, very few very, very lucky people who figure out the one thing they can do that makes them happy and makes them money who are out there doing that one thing. In more years than I will admit to, I have only known 3 of these people. I admire them greatly but know they are an exceedingly rare breed.
    The rest of us find things we like to do, do well, are satisfied doing but it's not the same. I once took a 30% pay cut to take the job of my dreams. I never regretted it and would be there still if the parent company hadn't shut down the division.
    But even in the job of my dreams it wasn't the same for me as for a good friend who after almost 30 years in the same field still would be just as happy even if she wasn't paid for what she does.
    Heck, I'm currently looking at jobs that would be a 40% pay cut. My financial planner has said of me that I'm the only one of his clients who is into active downward mobility. I tell him his job is to keep me from financial ruin. He says, I don't make that easy.

    I guess what I am saying is that there is more to life and a job than money. If your basic needs are met, everything else is negotiable.
  11. by   Roland
    a cut in pay when quality of life issues are involved ESPCIALLY when their basic needs are met (by the lower pay check). However, this desribes the vast minority of Americans MOST people live literally from pay check to pay check and the prospect of taking a cut in pay for a better quality of life is all but non existent. For these people a cut in pay means not being able to get their five year old used car fixed when it breaks down, or pay for a root canal in lieu of an extraction when a tooth problem arises.

    I believe this situation has resulted from a myriad of factors not the least of which is an exorbitant tax rate which approaches 50% for many families (when you consider federal, state, local, sales, excise, gas, real estaste ect) AND an every increasing tendency towards occupations that pay "just enough to get by on". These trends are compounded by a tendency to carry credit card "debt service" levels which often take another quarter of whatever is left over after taxes. Not to mention making the actual RETIREMENT of such high interest revolving debt extraordinarily difficult. An extra ten or twenty thousand per year beyond what is needed for expenses offers not only additional income, but also the opportunity which such income can confer. To say nothing of the fact that such additonal income allows for the prospect of actually SAVING for retirement. No small feat considering that more than 90% of Americans retire below the poverty limit (by most estimates). For most people good pay means freedom both for themselves and their families. It is against this back drop that I have no shame, and make no apologies for aspiring to an occupation which has the potential to offer at least a modicum of such freedom.

    One final factor. I have read a number of posts on this board which say something akin to "there are many occupations which pay more than nursing." Perhaps, but there are also MANY that pay less. I have several friends who are pharmacists and have practiced in retail for three to five years neither earn more than 80K per year, and they work 60+ hour weeks routinely (consider that the pharmacy Pharm D degree requires a SIX years of school and they are considered in severe shortage in many places nationwide.) A reasonably aggressive, hardworking RN who worked 50 hours per week earning $30.00 per hour (fairly typical for Indianapolis which is a fairly typical, reasonably priced place to live where you can still buy a nice three bedroom ranch house for 100k if you shop) would earn $75,000 almost as much (albeit to get the extra ten hours over 36 or 40 he/she might have to work with an agency).
    Last edit by Roland on Aug 28, '02
  12. by   Qwiigley
    Sorry for my absence, guys. I have started my CRNA program and I tend to stop reading really long threads. Sorry.
    The male nurse that was so bad was young and immature. He did not listen to instructors or had a flippant attitide. Finally, when OB rotation came about, he had the attitude that he wasn't going to work in that field, so he didn;t "respect" the patients. At the Mount we go into some seedy sides of town for some of our clinicals- he was such a loser, that he didn't treat ALL people with respect! That is something no reputable school will put up with. He had the grades mostly, he didn;t have the dedication or heart.
    Dr. Kate; I graduated from MSMC in 1997. I LOVE being nurse. I am proud to say I am a nurse. I am sooo thankful to have had the opportunity to attend MSMC. I believe I received a fine education; alibet VERY expensive as I didn;t qualify for any help.
    I live within my means. I pay off my credit cards monthly. I drive a nice car, a nice roof over my head and yummy food in my belly. With the husband I love.(13 years).. who could ask for anything more???
    When did you grad from the Mount?
  13. by   Roland
    had was maturity not so much that he wasn't cut out to be a nurse. With the attitude that you describe he would have encountered difficulty in any serious endeavor requiring interaction with people (and that folks covers alot of ground!)


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