BSN to Doctor Programs

TiffyRN, BSN, PhD · Mar 27, 2019

I can only speak to the BSN to PhD (not DNP) program. In the program I attend, we do not earn an MSN as we progress. There is a completely different track than MSN. I believe it has to do with accreditation standards. The AACN accredits BSN, MSN, and DNP programs in the US (not sure about ADN). They have specified certain core competencies for each level (I believe called MSN essentials). These include advanced patho, advanced pharmacology, and advanced physical assessment for all MSN and DNP degrees granted by institutions accredited by the AACN.

PhD programs are regionally accredited and do not fall under the AACN so each regional accreditation sets the competencies. The regional accreditation for my PhD program does not require the 3Ps as they are more focused on advanced research competencies. The program I'm in used to include the 3Ps but they found it was entirely too much and not adding to the quality of the program.

For the program I attend, we attend some MSN Education courses for the first 4 semesters but otherwise we are thrown into the same PhD courses as the MSN to PhD students. In general, the professors find it takes the BSN students about a year to accommodate, and then they can't tell who was originally an MSN versus who came in with a BSN (it was an intense first year to say the least).

In total, I will have 18 credits of MSN-Education, and an additional 6 credits from the DNP program that the people who started as MSN will not have. The BSN to PhD program requires the students to attend full-time (9-10 credit hours/semester), while most of the MSN to PhD students attend part-time (3-6 hours/semester). So far, only 4 of our original 9 students remain and I'm tied for the lead in being closest to defense. According to the program of study, it's possible to complete the MSN to PhD program in 2.5-3 years but the shortest time to complete the BSN to PhD program is 4 years (I'll be at about 5 when I finish).

Sorry, I guess that's a really long-winded response to an uncomplicated question.

TL;DR version: for the most part BSN students start in the same courses with the MSN students but we take a few extra credits all along to catch up.

saheckler, PhD, RN · Mar 27, 2019

@TiffyRN that is so interesting to learn about the accreditation piece! I wasn't aware of that!

I'll be a BSN-PhD student starting this fall. For most of the programs I applied to there isn't a difference between the BSN-PhD and the MSN-PhD curriculum or time to degree. I think the rationale is that a PhD is to prepare you for a research career, and an MSN is usually more focused on clinical knowledge/skills or management, nursing education, leadership, etc. as opposed to learning research skills.

While some BSN-PhD programs will confer a master's degree after completion of coursework, I haven't heard of any that require you to reapply to the PhD program again after completion of coursework. Since you're applying directly to the PhD program when you apply for the BSN-PhD track, when you're in you're in and there's no reapplying. I don't know anything about DNP programs, but I would expect it to be the same.

Are you thinking of going to school for your doctorate?

Hope this helps!

TiffyRN, BSN, PhD · Mar 27, 2019

1 hour ago, saheckler said:
@TiffyRN that is so interesting to learn about the accreditation piece! I wasn't aware of that!
As I mentioned, I had to take several MSN-Education courses and one of those was a solid semester on nursing education accreditation, which granted is very important if you are going to work in a nursing program. It was an INCREDIBLY boring course full of standards and regulations.
Later as I did my nursing education practicum at a local BSN program I found out that these are actually a part of one's life as a nursing professor. Nursing programs are pretty much always somewhere in that 5 year renewal cycle with the AACN and it's so much work that they have to tackle it on a continuing basis.

SummerGarden, BSN, MSN, RN · Mar 29, 2019

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 9:31 AM, TiffyRN said:
In total, I will have 18 credits of MSN-Education, and an additional 6 credits from the DNP program that the people who started as MSN will not have. The BSN to PhD program requires the students to attend full-time (9-10 credit hours/semester), while most of the MSN to PhD students attend part-time (3-6 hours/semester). So far, only 4 of our original 9 students remain and I'm tied for the lead in being closest to defense.
Sorry, I guess that's a really long-winded response to an uncomplicated question.

Thank you for the lengthiness of your response. You answered my question completely. ? I was thinking the cohorts were bigger, but it makes sense that they are small. Also, do you know what issues caused your peers to leave your program?

TiffyRN, BSN, PhD · Mar 29, 2019

3 hours ago, SummerGarden said:
Thank you for the lengthiness of your response. You answered my question completely. ? I was thinking the cohorts were bigger, but it makes sense that they are small. Also, do you know what issues caused your peers to leave your program?

I might not remember all of them (It's been a long 4 years). Now that I think more carefully, we only started with 8. We had 10 names of folks that had been accepted, but only 8 showed up to our orientation week.

The first student to drop was L, and she did about 2 weeks in when she realized the coursework was way out of her wheelhouse (she was BSN-PhD). She and I had several long conversations and the reasons she gave were that she was older (around 60), and she was overwhelmed by the coursework requirements.

The second was M. She was MSN-PhD. She and I were also kind of close and had extensive conservations. She dropped during the second semester when we were taking advanced stats which she was not passing. In our conversations it became apparent that she wasn't sure what she wanted to do with her career, she was younger (around 30). At one point she actually said to me: "I've come to realize I don't really like research". To which I said, well, you're intelligent, but need to find something that does interest you. She decided to go do a post-masters certificate for NP.

Our 3rd drop was C, another MSN-PhD. She just flat had too much on her plate. She was a working WHNP, also teaching nursing school, and trying to attend our program. She limped along for about 4 semesters then we stopped seeing her name. She had already been barely participating and dropped several courses.

The last drop was my closest friend in the program, a fellow BSN to PhD. She was the youngest in our group and a really sharp scholar. At the beginning of our third year, she was suffering from some serious physical symptoms, right on campus as we were there for our 3rd year orientation. She had to take a lot of time off that semester to deal with her medical problems and she wound up dropping that semester. She had been my closest partner and we were going to be doing studies using the same chair and using the same methodology. I took that one pretty hard. I still follow her on FB but she has never volunteered to me why she didn't go back after her health improved.

We have another student who may have dropped. She passed her comps almost a year before the rest of us. She was MSN-PhD and had been taking full-time courses. After she passed comps, she ran into some huge problems with her employer, like the employer (an MD) absconded with funds from the practice and left her to try to clean up the mess. After she got through that, she had huge issues after (according to her), she had a horrible chair who never responded to her emails. It apparently wound up before the dean and she was able to choose a new chair. To my knowledge, she was to defend her proposal about 18 months ago (about time I did). I have reached out to her repeatedly by email and text, as have my remaining cohorts. She has stopped responding so I have no idea where she is in the program.

So, one of the great bits of wisdom my chair shares is that PhD is more a degree in persistence than anything else.

The remaining 3 (not counting the lady with problems with her employer and chair) are progressing along. Myself and C. have both been through IRB and have completed our data collection phase. C. is still analyzing her data. I am writing up having all but finished chapters 2 and 4. We both believe we will be ready for defense no later than the end of Summer semester. The other lady, V. has not yet defended her proposal, so it will be a while yet for her.

Hope that helps!