AANA urges Medicare to consider hospital anesthesiology efficiency measures

Specialties CRNA

Published

AANA Urges Medicare to Consider Hospital Anesthesiology Efficiency Measures

The AANA has recommended that Medicare consider the costs of various anesthesia delivery models and of hospital anesthesia subsidies per anesthetizing location as part of quality measures intended to capture the efficiency of hospital anesthesia services.

The June 21 letter, signed by President Janice Izlar, CRNA, DNAP, stated, "The Agency may want to consider the costs of meeting the seven medical direction steps as part of the anesthesiology spending and cost-efficiency measure. Under the medical direction practice model, the medical directing anesthesiologist must complete seven steps in order to bill for this modality. The Agency has clearly stated that medical direction is a condition for payment for anesthesiologist services and not a quality standard."

The AANA discussed the ways that the requirements associated with anesthesiologist medical direction claims contribute to healthcare cost growth, noting specifically the requirement that the anesthesiologist be "present at induction." "For every minute spent waiting for an anesthesiologist to arrive and be present at induction, some of the costliest resources in the hospital are wasted. The clock is running on the surgeon, circulating nurse, scrub tech, and nurse anesthetist waiting in the operating room. Waiting costs cascade throughout the day, postponing the surgery schedule to require overtime and on-call staff, delaying the surgeon's rounds to affect patient care and discharge of the patient from the healthcare facility. Waiting costs also add opportunity costs, diverting needed resources from other patient care," continued the letter.

The letter also recommends including the cost per anesthetizing location as part of the proposed anesthesiology measure since hospitals pay an average of $160,096 per anesthetizing location to anesthesiology groups, and increasing the weight placed on clinical process of care measures, such as the Surgical Care Improvement Project (SCIP) measures, under the hospital value based purchasing program.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Cash cows? What universities are you referring to? Do you have research on that? I would love to pass it along to our Dean - and I am being totally serious - no snark.

Unless you are talking about UFGC or Maryland which charges >$100,000 for out of state students, I can't see how the SRNA programs make anymore money for the university than any other program, especially since many universities (especially state universities) cap their programs to be

TWU, TCU, Wolford all come to mind.

http://wolford.edu/pdf/academics/msnurse/tuition.pdf

http://txwes.edu/media/twu/content-assets/documents/graduate/graduate-catalog.pdf (about 1,000 per semester credit hour)

TCU Harris College | School of Nurse Anesthesia (about 85,000 in tuition alone)

These are all relatively large programs too. I don't need to trust you. SRNAs are "Cash Cows" these programs do not open and stay open out of the goodness of their hearts. I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, but in general nurse anesthesia programs are a profitable business for the universities that run them.

Specializes in critcal care, CRNA.

TWU, TCU, Wolford all come to mind.

http://wolford.edu/pdf/academics/msnurse/tuition.pdf

http://txwes.edu/media/twu/content-assets/documents/graduate/graduate-catalog.pdf (about 1,000 per semester credit hour)

TCU Harris College | School of Nurse Anesthesia (about 85,000 in tuition alone)

These are all relatively large programs too. I don't need to trust you. SRNAs are "Cash Cows" these programs do not open and stay open out of the goodness of their hearts. I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, but in general nurse anesthesia programs are a profitable business for the universities that run them.

My school is as well. Tuition was $52k times 20 students. The program director, assistant director and 2 admin people are on payroll. Instructors from the clinical staff volunteer to teach classes. Two other instructors get a small fee to teach. That leaves a lot of money from the million dollars they are receiving per class.

Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
SRNAs are "Cash Cows" these programs do not open and stay open out of the goodness of their hearts.

Every program has to be profitable, otherwise a university would not provide the program. However, SRNA programs are not "cash cows." That would insinuate that SRNA programs trump all other programs.

TWU, TCU, Wolford all come to mind

Simply providing how much a program costs has no relationship to the balance sheet/operating costs of the program. If the programs is $50,000 but it costs $49,000 to educate a student, that is not a lot of money. Each university uses those monies differently. If it is a private institution it will need more money than public because of lack of taxpayer dollars. The weight of the world does not lie on the back of SRNA programs.

Of course it takes more $ to educate physicians, but the amount of research that is produced from medical schools (where the real cash is) is not even comparable to that of SRNA schools.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Every program has to be profitable, otherwise a university would not provide the program. However, SRNA programs are not "cash cows." That would insinuate that SRNA programs trump all other programs.

Simply providing how much a program costs has no relationship to the balance sheet/operating costs of the program. If the programs is $50,000 but it costs $49,000 to educate a student, that is not a lot of money. Each university uses those monies differently. If it is a private institution it will need more money than public because of lack of taxpayer dollars. The weight of the world does not lie on the back of SRNA programs.

Of course it takes more $ to educate physicians, but the amount of research that is produced from medical schools (where the real cash is) is not even comparable to that of SRNA schools.

Trying to state that the majority of the money goes to expenses won't work either. I know faculty at different CRNA schools and I have an idea of some of the costs. I also know that CRNA schools are increasing not decreasing. The amount of schools would not be increasing without a profit incentive.

Lets take a look a TWU one of the largest CRNA programs. TWU admits over 120 students to the MSNA program every year with 65 semester credit hours at approximately 1,000 per semester credit hour or $65,000 per student for 28 months in tuition and fees. This does not include any money that school makes off the students for books and supplies. That is 7.8 million per class for a little over 2yrs of study. The school is sharing resources and faculty with MSNA, MHA, and DNAP students also, so you tell me that how SRNAs are not cash cows. These schools are extremely profitable.

Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
My school is as well. Tuition was $52k times 20 students. The program director, assistant director and 2 admin people are on payroll. Instructors from the clinical staff volunteer to teach classes. Two other instructors get a small fee to teach. That leaves a lot of money from the million dollars they are receiving per class.

First of all there is an average of about a 5% charge that the university charges per program for costs of operating then there are:

Recruitment costs

Admissions personnel costs

Operating costs of the building

Insurance for the SRNA's

Office costs

Marketing costs

Taxes (even universities pay some taxes)

Payroll with benefits (usually equal to 63% of the total operating costs)

The other instructors that are not CRNA's who help to teach the program

Research/Data base/Journal subscriptions (this can cost millions a year)

I could go on and on.....

Also, your professors volunteer to teach you???

There is no program that is certified by any nursing licensing entity that has only volunteer teachers. Yes, you may certainly have a teacher who will be a guest speaker or volunteer for a class or two for someone who is sick, but a whole semester? How do you evaluate their teaching? What incentives do the instructors have to become better? How do they create and implement and evaluate a curriculum? They evaluate you for free? And teaching is one thing, but then how do you do research with volunteer instructors?

Going through a certification can be a nightmare, and it would be impossible to do with a volunteer staff who does not have to go through the systems training a prof does. It is also hard enough to have adjunct professors on staff as they do not necessarily have to follow the same protocols, but almost an entire staff? I cannot believe that 2 instructors (sounds as if they are part time) take on that responsibility. The reputation of a program should start with the reputation of the professors.

Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
The school is sharing resources and faculty with MSNA, MHA, and DNAP students also, so you tell me that how SRNAs are not cash cows. These schools are extremely profitable.

Then what are their profit margins?

Specializes in Anesthesia.
First of all there is an average of about a 5% charge that the university charges per program for costs of operating then there are:

Recruitment costs

Admissions personnel costs

Operating costs of the building

Insurance for the SRNA's

Office costs

Marketing costs

Taxes (even universities pay some taxes)

Payroll with benefits (usually equal to 63% of the total operating costs)

The other instructors that are not CRNA's who help to teach the program

Research/Data base/Journal subscriptions (this can cost millions a year)

I could go on and on.....

Also, your professors volunteer to teach you???

There is no program that is certified by any nursing licensing entity that has only volunteer teachers. Yes, you may certainly have a teacher who will be a guest speaker or volunteer for a class or two for someone who is sick, but a whole semester? How do you evaluate their teaching? What incentives do the instructors have to become better? How do they create and implement and evaluate a curriculum? They evaluate you for free? And teaching is one thing, but then how do you do research with volunteer instructors?

Going through a certification can be a nightmare, and it would be impossible to do with a volunteer staff who does not have to go through the systems training a prof does. It is also hard enough to have adjunct professors on staff as they do not necessarily have to follow the same protocols, but almost an entire staff? I cannot believe that 2 instructors (sounds as if they are part time) take on that responsibility. The reputation of a program should start with the reputation of the professors.

Okay so you are saying all these programs are using all this money and they teaching out of the goodness of their hearts....Really give me a break. I looked at the faculty breakdown. TWU is clearing at least a couple of million a year off their CRNA and DNAP programs.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Then what are their profit margins?

You seem to know the expenses of every program and think these programs are just getting by then you tell me.

Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
Okay so you are saying all these programs are using all this money and they teaching out of the goodness of their hearts....Really give me a break. I looked at the faculty breakdown. TWU is clearing at least a couple of million a year off their CRNA and DNAP programs.

You looked at the faculty breakdown? How do you know they are clearing that much?

Again, I am not saying that programs aren't profitable, they are, but they are profitable for other reasons than just tuition. It does not just come from the students and there are costs you don't see, just like with any other business. If they were sooo profitable, many other schools would have started CRNA schools as well.

You seem to know the expenses of every program and think these programs are just getting by then you tell me.

Never said I did, but I do know how much (as per balance sheets and P&L statments) it takes to run a nursing school and some CRNA schools as per my experience. You seem to always want to win the fight. I would not start to argue with you about the best EBP in anesthesia even though I teach and I employ anesthesia providers. I am not going to pretend to be an expert in a field where I am not. But I do know budgets and costs in healthcare and universities, my job requires it. So we can agree to disagree. SRNA schools are profitable, but that was not the statement that was made. I am saying that SRNA schools are not as profitable as you believe and the start-ups of these programs, especially DNP are not financially possible for many schools even with the infrastructure in place.

Okay so you are saying all these programs are using all this money and they teaching out of the goodness of their hearts.

No, I didn't say they were teaching out the goodness of their hearts, you need to read the OP of the person that did. He said that his program only had 2 teachers that were compensated which I find very hard to believe. I said that the monies go primarily to teaching/personnel in many institutions. Personnel costs are usually the highest cost in any service industry.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
You looked at the faculty breakdown? How do you know they are clearing that much?

Again, I am not saying that programs aren't profitable, they are, but they are profitable for other reasons than just tuition. It does not just come from the students and there are costs you don't see, just like with any other business. If they were sooo profitable, many other schools would have started CRNA schools as well.

Never said I did, but I do know how much (as per balance sheets and P&L statments) it takes to run a nursing school and some CRNA schools as per my experience. You seem to always want to win the fight. I would not start to argue with you about the best EBP in anesthesia even though I teach and I employ anesthesia providers. I am not going to pretend to be an expert in a field where I am not. But I do know budgets and costs in healthcare and universities, my job requires it. So we can agree to disagree. SRNA schools are profitable, but that was not the statement that was made. I am saying that SRNA schools are not as profitable as you believe and the start-ups of these programs, especially DNP are not financially possible for many schools even with the infrastructure in place.

No, I didn't say they were teaching out the goodness of their hearts, you need to read the OP of the person that did. He said that his program only had 2 teachers that were compensated which I find very hard to believe. I said that the monies go primarily to teaching/personnel in many institutions. Personnel costs are usually the highest cost in any service industry.

If you're an expert on costs with the experience to match then post the balance sheets. My latest degree was a DNAP with a focus in nurse anesthesia education and administration. One of our classes was on program administration and costs. I have fair idea that these large programs are extremely profitable. The only thing stopping numerous nurse anesthesia programs opening is the accreditation process. The accreditation process is very difficult and has recently became even more rigorous.

The DNP/DNAP increases the nurse anesthesia school programs to a minimum length to 36 months per COA standards. Tuition will increase accordingly with the increase length of the program. Large programs like the ones I mentioned are highly profitable. The smaller programs, unless they are sharing a significant portion of their personnel, are going to be low profit d/t personnel costs.

I stand by my original statement that SRNAs are virtual cash cows.

The only thing you and I our disagreeing over is the amount of profit these schools actually make. It is very easy to see how a program like TWU with a combined student total somewhere around 200 per year in all three of their anesthesia programs (MSNA, MHA, and DNAP) are extremely profitable.

Specializes in critcal care, CRNA.

First of all there is an average of about a 5% charge that the university charges per program for costs of operating then there are:

Recruitment costs

Admissions personnel costs

Operating costs of the building

Insurance for the SRNA's

Office costs

Marketing costs

Taxes (even universities pay some taxes)

Payroll with benefits (usually equal to 63% of the total operating costs)

The other instructors that are not CRNA's who help to teach the program

Research/Data base/Journal subscriptions (this can cost millions a year)

I could go on and on.....

Also, your professors volunteer to teach you???

There is no program that is certified by any nursing licensing entity that has only volunteer teachers. Yes, you may certainly have a teacher who will be a guest speaker or volunteer for a class or two for someone who is sick, but a whole semester? How do you evaluate their teaching? What incentives do the instructors have to become better? How do they create and implement and evaluate a curriculum? They evaluate you for free? And teaching is one thing, but then how do you do research with volunteer instructors?

Going through a certification can be a nightmare, and it would be impossible to do with a volunteer staff who does not have to go through the systems training a prof does. It is also hard enough to have adjunct professors on staff as they do not necessarily have to follow the same protocols, but almost an entire staff? I cannot believe that 2 instructors (sounds as if they are part time) take on that responsibility. The reputation of a program should start with the reputation of the professors.

Anesthesiologists teach many of the courses and yes they do it for free. They get out of clinical obligations to teach each week. I guess it works since the school received their 10 yr recertification. We had a pharm-D teach two classes and a CRNA teach chem/physics. Those two are on payroll. Also we take our research and nurse philosophy classes at the university. You may know your university but you don't know them all. There are currently 114 nurse anesthesia programs. That's a large amount of programs for very little profit??? You won't get many people to agree with you on that one.

A million dollars in tuition and you think they are only making a little profit? I enjoyed my program and I am not complaining about my costs but they were not supplemented like people believe. I know of some programs that cost less than $20k to the student. There you might have an argument but most schools are raking in the money.

Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
Anesthesiologists teach many of the courses and yes they do it for free. They get out of clinical obligations to teach each week.

Well then you made my point. No Anesthesiologist is going to work for 'free' and not see patients who would pay them, unless they were salaried MD's in a teaching hospital, in which case, they receive money from the government to subsidize their income ie: Direct graduate medical education payments. Do you think hospitals would let MD's forgo seeing patients without some type of compensation? This was the original argument. Your university is able to make a profit because of government supplementation provided to them from residency training. If you are in a teaching hospital, which I bet you are, then the Anesthesiologists are compensated for teaching you - not directly, but from money (a stipend) the hospital and medical college receive. They are paid a salary which is paid for by the hospital thru DGME. This money comes from the government.

I enjoyed my program and I am not complaining about my costs but they were not supplemented like people believe.

Saying your program is a cash cow because you have volunteers teaching you is incorrect. They make a profit because they are subsidized, just like medical schools. Also, does you tuition include you taking those other classes at the university, or do you pay more for that? I am sure they get their fair share of your tuition as well. If profits are coming from the money your school saves by having volunteer teachers that are Anesthesiologist, then CRNA school is directly profiting from residency programs. Anesthesiologists got their (supplemented/subsidized) training and now are passing it along to the school for free. You should thank you local medical school. If your school had to pay for full-time CRNA only staff without state subsidization, your tuition would be much higher.

Again, how do they assess your work? Great that your program received a re-certification, but I am sure there are checks and balances in place to assure that certain competencies are being met. I don't know how every university is run, but there are certain rules and regulations that apply to all graduate studies.

Finally, I find it interesting that there is such distain for MD's from so many CRNA's, but you are saying that in your program, the MD's are the primary instructors and they do it for free. Why don't you have more CRNA instructors? That seems disconnected to me.

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