AANA urges Medicare to consider hospital anesthesiology efficiency measures

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AANA Urges Medicare to Consider Hospital Anesthesiology Efficiency Measures

The AANA has recommended that Medicare consider the costs of various anesthesia delivery models and of hospital anesthesia subsidies per anesthetizing location as part of quality measures intended to capture the efficiency of hospital anesthesia services.

The June 21 letter, signed by President Janice Izlar, CRNA, DNAP, stated, "The Agency may want to consider the costs of meeting the seven medical direction steps as part of the anesthesiology spending and cost-efficiency measure. Under the medical direction practice model, the medical directing anesthesiologist must complete seven steps in order to bill for this modality. The Agency has clearly stated that medical direction is a condition for payment for anesthesiologist services and not a quality standard."

The AANA discussed the ways that the requirements associated with anesthesiologist medical direction claims contribute to healthcare cost growth, noting specifically the requirement that the anesthesiologist be "present at induction." "For every minute spent waiting for an anesthesiologist to arrive and be present at induction, some of the costliest resources in the hospital are wasted. The clock is running on the surgeon, circulating nurse, scrub tech, and nurse anesthetist waiting in the operating room. Waiting costs cascade throughout the day, postponing the surgery schedule to require overtime and on-call staff, delaying the surgeon's rounds to affect patient care and discharge of the patient from the healthcare facility. Waiting costs also add opportunity costs, diverting needed resources from other patient care," continued the letter.

The letter also recommends including the cost per anesthetizing location as part of the proposed anesthesiology measure since hospitals pay an average of $160,096 per anesthetizing location to anesthesiology groups, and increasing the weight placed on clinical process of care measures, such as the Surgical Care Improvement Project (SCIP) measures, under the hospital value based purchasing program.

Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.

So now you call me a liar? So I made up what happened at my last two hospitals?

In your limited view, you don't realize the difference in various regions. Nor do you have any understanding of pass through.

I can understand why as AAs are unable to work in rural critical access hospitals.

So now you call me a liar? So I made up what happened at my last two hospitals?

In your limited view, you don't realize the difference in various regions. Nor do you have any understanding of pass through.

I can understand why as AAs are unable to work in rural critical access hospitals.

So you're denying that the AANA works to keep the rural pass-through as-is, and seeks to prevent any changes that would allow anesthesiologists to benefit from Part A payment like CRNA's? Just trying to make sure I understand your statement. I didn't call anyone a liar.

AA's can work at rural critical access hospitals - the pass-through rule actually applies to them as well - as long as there is an anesthesiologist there. Ah, so many reasons for the AANA to want to maintain the status quo rather than allow the free market to work.

Specializes in Anesthesia.

If it was free market then all APNs would be allowed to work and bill totally independent.

Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.

Don't put words in my mouth. That is the desperate act of someone who has no rational argument.

Why would a critical access hospital want AAs ? WHY? The hospital needs to do less than 800 cases a year. Why on earth would you have an AA AND a MDA doing that volume? Both would have to be there for every case. The AA can't take call as he cannot function without the MDA holding his hand.

Why should the AANA support MDAs getting pass through? Why should we support ANYTHING that comes out of the ASA?

When the ASA supports CRNA practice and free market, i'll support MDAs getting pass through. Not that they would ever go to a rural hospital anyway.

You talk about free market but really should read up on it. You just throw out disconnected arguments and hope somebody is foolish enough to believe them.

"allow the free market to work". LMAO

I do understand that you must feel frustrated at not being able to function alone. I can't imagine how it must feel to be forced to have a MDA supervising and directed everything you do. I would think that is the reason you feel the need to frequent CRNA forums such as this one and the other we won't name. You do have my sympathy.

So you're denying that the AANA works to keep the rural pass-through as-is, and seeks to prevent any changes that would allow anesthesiologists to benefit from Part A payment like CRNA's? Just trying to make sure I understand your statement. I didn't call anyone a liar.

AA's can work at rural critical access hospitals - the pass-through rule actually applies to them as well - as long as there is an anesthesiologist there. Ah, so many reasons for the AANA to want to maintain the status quo rather than allow the free market to work.

Don't put words in my mouth. That is the desperate act of someone who has no rational argument.

Why would a critical access hospital want AAs ? WHY? The hospital needs to do less than 800 cases a year. Why on earth would you have an AA AND a MDA doing that volume? Both would have to be there for every case. The AA can't take call as he cannot function without the MDA holding his hand.

Why should the AANA support MDAs getting pass through? Why should we support ANYTHING that comes out of the ASA?

When the ASA supports CRNA practice and free market, i'll support MDAs getting pass through. Not that they would ever go to a rural hospital anyway.

You talk about free market but really should read up on it. You just throw out disconnected arguments and hope somebody is foolish enough to believe them.

"allow the free market to work". LMAO

I do understand that you must feel frustrated at not being able to function alone. I can't imagine how it must feel to be forced to have a MDA supervising and directed everything you do. I would think that is the reason you feel the need to frequent CRNA forums such as this one and the other we won't name. You do have my sympathy.

I have a perfect understanding of pass-through and how it works. The law does in fact apply to AA's - I didn't write it - I'm just telling you what is in it in case you weren't quite clear. Clearly there are anesthesiologists interested in working in small critical access hospitals, since the ASA has been trying to change the provisions of the pass-through law for years to make it a level playing field.

If your position is that anesthesiologists won't go there anyway, then why would you be opposed to allowing the pass-through regs to apply to anesthesiologists?

Hey, you want to work in the proverbial BFE, be my guest. I have no interest. But others who are interested should be treated equitably under the law.

Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.

Let them go and work there. They will still get paid.

Let them go and bill for their services as many CRNAs do.

So no response about "free market"? That is your MO. Ignore when you have no appropriate answer and try to spin and change the subject.

There are 1328 CAH in the US. Only 650 are receiving any type of pass through. Why don't the MDA go work at them? WOW, 650 CAH hospitals are preventing MDAs from working at ALL the rural hospitals. LOL

All you do is cry. You sound like my kids. ITS NOT FAIR.

So it IS a level playing field in more than half the critical access hospitals. That is not even counting the many, many rural hospital who do not qualify as CAH. Why don't they work there? Why are MDAs found mainly in larger urban areas?

So lets it make it a level playing field. We let them have pass through and they get to actually start doing their own cases EVERYWHERE. Unless of course they hire AAs to supervise to make them money.

Another question which you keep dodging. Why do you frequent nurse anesthesia forums. Do you not have your own where AAs call all cry and whine together? Although I truly do find your posts amusing. It is like arguing with my teenagers. No substance but a lot of spin and crying.

I have a perfect understanding of pass-through and how it works. The law does in fact apply to AA's - I didn't write it - I'm just telling you what is in it in case you weren't quite clear. Clearly there are anesthesiologists interested in working in small critical access hospitals, since the ASA has been trying to change the provisions of the pass-through law for years to make it a level playing field.

If your position is that anesthesiologists won't go there anyway, then why would you be opposed to allowing the pass-through regs to apply to anesthesiologists?

Hey, you want to work in the proverbial BFE, be my guest. I have no interest. But others who are interested should be treated equitably under the law.

Let them go and work there. They will still get paid.

Let them go and bill for their services as many CRNAs do.

So no response about "free market"? That is your MO. Ignore when you have no appropriate answer and try to spin and change the subject.

There are 1328 CAH in the US. Only 650 are receiving any type of pass through. Why don't the MDA go work at them? WOW, 650 CAH hospitals are preventing MDAs from working at ALL the rural hospitals. LOL

All you do is cry. You sound like my kids. ITS NOT FAIR.

So it IS a level playing field in more than half the critical access hospitals. That is not even counting the many, many rural hospital who do not qualify as CAH. Why don't they work there? Why are MDAs found mainly in larger urban areas?

So lets it make it a level playing field. We let them have pass through and they get to actually start doing their own cases EVERYWHERE. Unless of course they hire AAs to supervise to make them money.

Another question which you keep dodging. Why do you frequent nurse anesthesia forums. Do you not have your own where AAs call all cry and whine together? Although I truly do find your posts amusing. It is like arguing with my teenagers. No substance but a lot of spin and crying.

I dunno - why do the majority of CRNA's work in large urban areas? Maybe it's because higher population density = higher need for anesthesia provider. Of course I don't have a study to back that up - it's just another one of those common sense things that most of us understand.

There are plenty of anesthesiologists in smaller towns - maybe just not where you are. But those that are in critical access hospitals should be able to receive the same government subsidy that CRNA's do. And again - so I understand your viewpoint - if an anesthesiologist in a critical access hospital wants to hire a CRNA - would that be acceptable, or would that nurse simply be a pawn for the doc?

I haven't been around this website for a few years, primarily because the anesthesia threads were 100% moderated and it got boring. This is one of several that I pop in on. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Specializes in Anesthesia.

Why should anesthesiologists get more subsidies than they have already received from tax payers just from going to medical school and residency?

It cost around 1 million dollars to train an anesthesiologist. A lot of that money comes from taxpayers/CMS. CRNAs cost 1/10 to train versus an anesthesiologist, and CRNAs receives no such subsidies from CMS for their training.

Hospitals often have to subsidize ACT practices.

So, again tell me why the costs of anesthesia practices don't matter to anyone because the billing is the same.

Medicare Financing of Graduate Medical Education

Perspective: Hospital support for anesthesiology de... [Acad Med. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

Unbound MEDLINE : Health educational costs, provider mix, and healthcare reform: a case in point--nurse anesthetists and anesthesiologist

Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.

Trying to spin again. Truly is like talking to my teenager. LOL

I'll speak slower. The MDAs tend to work in Urban Centers and not rural. CRNAs DO work in rural areas.

http://www.aana.com/newsandjournal/Documents/181-190.pdfCertified Registered Nurse Anesthetists(CRNAs) are the predominant providers ofanesthesia services in rural areas of theUnited States.1-3 Of the anesthesia care pro-vided in rural hospitals, 70% is provided byCRNAs, and 37% of nurse anesthetists practice intowns with fewer than 50,000 residents.3 Despite thewidespread utilization of CRNAs in rural communi-ties, little information is available about the types ofanesthetic and ancillary services that rural CRNAsprovide.

I understand that AAs do not get the research and evidence based medicine in their education but try to understand. We practice by EBM, not our "feelings" or "common sense".

You have any evidence for the great many MDAs that practice in rural areas? The study I posted show 70% CRNA in rural areas. Once again, post the evidence. I'll provide a link so you can read up and learn about EBM so we can have a scientific discussion instead of what you FEEL is common sense.

Spin, spin and whine. CRNAs don't get a subsidy. Less than half of critical access hospitals get partial reimbursement for what the hospital pays for CRNA coverage. Once again we are back to " but its not fair". The road works both ways. Have the ASA start being "fair", you might get want you so desperately want.

I am amused by your posts. I actually used to be of the opinion that AAs were more educated than what is actually the case. Your posts have made me see my error in that regard.

It has given me an idea though. Maybe our association should work towards CRNAs being able to supervise AAs. That would give AAs more places to work.

I dunno - why do the majority of CRNA's work in large urban areas?

it's just another one of those common sense things that most of us understand.

There are plenty of anesthesiologists in smaller towns - maybe just not where you are.

But those that are in critical access hospitals should be able to receive the same government subsidy that CRNA's do. And again - so I understand your viewpoint - if an anesthesiologist in a critical access hospital wants to hire a CRNA - would that be acceptable, or would that nurse simply be a pawn for the doc?

I haven't been around this website for a few years, primarily because the anesthesia threads were 100% moderated and it got boring. This is one of several that I pop in on. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.

Definitely a hot topic and heated discussion. While AN welcomes ALL poster we expect both AA as well as CRNA posters to be polite and argue the point not the poster.

Thank you.

Trying to spin again. Truly is like talking to my teenager. LOL

I'll speak slower. The MDAs tend to work in Urban Centers and not rural. CRNAs DO work in rural areas.

http://www.aana.com/newsandjournal/Documents/181-190.pdfCertified Registered Nurse Anesthetists(CRNAs) are the predominant providers ofanesthesia services in rural areas of theUnited States.1-3 Of the anesthesia care pro-vided in rural hospitals, 70% is provided byCRNAs, and 37% of nurse anesthetists practice intowns with fewer than 50,000 residents.3 Despite thewidespread utilization of CRNAs in rural communi-ties, little information is available about the types ofanesthetic and ancillary services that rural CRNAsprovide.

I understand that AAs do not get the research and evidence based medicine in their education but try to understand. We practice by EBM, not our "feelings" or "common sense".

You have any evidence for the great many MDAs that practice in rural areas? The study I posted show 70% CRNA in rural areas. Once again, post the evidence. I'll provide a link so you can read up and learn about EBM so we can have a scientific discussion instead of what you FEEL is common sense.

Spin, spin and whine. CRNAs don't get a subsidy. Less than half of critical access hospitals get partial reimbursement for what the hospital pays for CRNA coverage. Once again we are back to " but its not fair". The road works both ways. Have the ASA start being "fair", you might get want you so desperately want.

I am amused by your posts. I actually used to be of the opinion that AAs were more educated than what is actually the case. Your posts have made me see my error in that regard.

It has given me an idea though. Maybe our association should work towards CRNAs being able to supervise AAs. That would give AAs more places to work.

Some anesthesiologists clearly work in rural areas, and a majority of CRNA's tend to work in urban centers as well. Using your own statistics...

If 70% of anesthetics in rural areas are provided by CRNA's, it would follow that 30% are provided by MD's.

If 37% of CRNA's practice in areas with less than 50k population, it would also follow that 63% of CRNA's practice in areas with more than 50k population.

I'm sorry you don't like the way I compose my arguments, but that's your problem. But surely since I'm using your own association's statistics, maybe you'll agree for a change. However, you clearly are ignorant of the educational curriculum of AA's, and your continued personal insults do little to bolster your debate points.

Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.

Thanks for finally agreeing that I am right. Almost all rural anesthetics are provided by CRNAs.

Once again, I'm sorry AAs are so limited and need the MDA. Don't take it out on CRNAs

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