Protect your profession... - page 5

Hello fellow professionals, May I have your attention please. An allnurses.com user by the name of nursebrandie made a valid point in the emergency nursing subforum that I would like to discuss... Read More

  1. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from WolfpackRed
    Are you sure about this? I may be taking this out of context, but there are more than "a few credits" difference b/w an associate prepared RN and a bachelor's prepared RN. Granted, the nursing education of a BSN may have a few more requirements than an ADN, but the other half of the BSN degree may demand an additional 60 credit hours of general college education.
    *** Some ADN programs require up to 88 credits. Lots of BSN programs require 120 credits. This is not a huge spread.
    Here is a link to Palomar College's nursing web site. Palomar is a community college in San Marcos California (Northern San Diego county) with a superb (and demanding) nursing program. I have worked with some of their graduates and IMO they would compare favorably with graduates from any nursing school in the country.

    http://www.palomar.edu/catalog/2006/...10.pdf#page=50
  2. by   WolfpackRed
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** Some ADN programs require up to 88 credits. Lots of BSN programs require 120 credits. This is not a huge spread.
    Here is a link to Palomar College's nursing web site. Palomar is a community college in San Marcos California (Northern San Diego county) with a superb (and demanding) nursing program. I have worked with some of their graduates and IMO they would compare favorably with graduates from any nursing school in the country.

    http://www.palomar.edu/catalog/2006/...10.pdf#page=50
    PMFB-RN,
    WhileI do not doubt the quality of education at any institute, as we all take the NCLEX and must pass in order to practice, I do question that this insitute, that you use as an example, assigns high weight to the courses. For instance the Nursing I-IV courses have a weight of 9 hours each, for a total of 36 hours. This would mean that 43-47% of the total hours required to graduate (depending on the amount of math required) would come from 4 classes. This would also suggest that the remaining 37-43 credit hours would be from other general education classes.

    I guess that my problem comes from the weight of the classes in proportion to the degree. In the program I am in, BSN at UNC-Chapel Hill as a second degree student, 60 credits came from my previous degree and the remaining 65 come from the nursing curricula. Our M/S #1 is 6 hours, M/S #2 is 8, Peds, Psych, Community Health, and Matenrity/Newborn (OB) are 5 hours each. This would mean that 34 credit hours from 6 classes make up 52% of the nursing curricula, but only 27% of the degree.

    I think that there is indeed a larger spread.
  3. by   pickledpepperRN
    The California licensed nurse to patient staffing law requires an RN triage nurse with no other patient assignment, one nurse to four or fewer patients, critical trauma is 1:1. The MICN must have no assignment but may assist when there is no radio call.


    Paramedic training prepares a student for pre hospital emergency care.
    They save lives and are amazing men and women.
    California requires that in the ER or other hospital setting they must function as unlicensed assistive personnel. They may not give medications or perform other procedures that are essential to their pre hospital practice.

    They do not learn the Nursing Process. They cannot be interchanged with registered nurses or licensed vocational nurses.: https://emstrainingbiz.com/paramedic.htm
  4. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from WolfpackRed
    PMFB-RN,
    WhileI do not doubt the quality of education at any institute, as we all take the NCLEX and must pass in order to practice, I do question that this insitute, that you use as an example, assigns high weight to the courses. For instance the Nursing I-IV courses have a weight of 9 hours each, for a total of 36 hours. This would mean that 43-47% of the total hours required to graduate (depending on the amount of math required) would come from 4 classes. This would also suggest that the remaining 37-43 credit hours would be from other general education classes.

    I guess that my problem comes from the weight of the classes in proportion to the degree. In the program I am in, BSN at UNC-Chapel Hill as a second degree student, 60 credits came from my previous degree and the remaining 65 come from the nursing curricula. Our M/S #1 is 6 hours, M/S #2 is 8, Peds, Psych, Community Health, and Matenrity/Newborn (OB) are 5 hours each. This would mean that 34 credit hours from 6 classes make up 52% of the nursing curricula, but only 27% of the degree.

    I think that there is indeed a larger spread.
    *** Yes I see your point. However you are comparing a California college to on in North Carolina. I think it would be interesting to compare the Paloma nursing program to one of the California state universities and the basic BSN program at UNC Chapel Hill to one of the community college ADN programs in North Carolina.
    I suspect that the spread will vary quite a bit from state to state. For example in my state (Wisconsin) the UW has an RN to BSN program for ADN graduates of Wisconsin's technical colleges. Community nursing is the only nursing class in that program. The rest of the credits are general education and natural sciences.
    The nurse educator in my ICU started as a diploma grad, then went on to get his BSN and MSN He has been an ICU nurse for 27 years and spent 6 years teaching in one of the UW BSN programs. We discussed this very subject not long ago and he told me that it has been his observation that there is far more variability among new grad nurses than between programs. He has seen great nurses come from all three types of programs and not so great nurses come from all three types of programs.
  5. by   WolfpackRed
    Another interesting detail I just noticied is that student in Paloma's nursing program are able to gain licensure without completing their degree. Look under the licensure section and it states that students may elect to qualify for NCLEX without completing their ADN.

    What do you think of this?
    Last edit by WolfpackRed on Feb 18, '07 : Reason: wrong information
  6. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from WolfpackRed
    Another interesting detail I just noticied is that student in Paloma's nursing program are able to gain licensure without completing their degree. Look under the licensure section and it states that students may elect to complete only the 30 hours of nursing courses and qualify for NCLEX. What do you think of this?
    *** That is a separate program and their license in only recognized in the state of California.
    I work with plenty of very fine RNs who have no degree at all including the chief CRNA. Personally I don't care HOW you came to know what you know, I only care that you know what you are supposed to know.
    I am currently in an RN to BSN program and some of it is a real learning experience. Some of it is silly and stupid. For example the classes and papers I have to write to become culturally aware. Not that I don't think cultural awareness is a valuable trait in a nurse, but given my life experience it's a waste.
    There is simply no way that the current BSN programs could turn out enough RNs and the community colleges are not in a position to start offering BSNs so we are going to have ADN RNs for some time to come. Besides I like how nurses can "ladder" up from CNA to MSN. It allows many people the opportunity to become nurses who otherwise could not do so. Myself included.
  7. by   Sheri257
    Quote from KMSRN
    If you notice, pharmacists and physical therapists now require a doctorate for entry level. OTs, dietitians, social workers require at bare minimum a bachelor's degree and most have a masters. Nursing has refused to raise the bar on education and is consequently being left in the dust.
    If we're talking about raising wages and protecting our turf, so to speak, you don't need to raise the educational barriers to the labor pool. That hasn't made much of a difference in California ... what has made the difference is unions.

    Look at these stats from the Bureau of Labor statistics. These are the average annual salaries broken down by profession in California and, with the exception of pharmacists and docs who obviously make more than everybody else, RN's are right up there. To wit:

    Average RN annual salary: $70K a year. Compare this with ...

    PT's: $70K a year
    OT's: $70K a year
    Dieticians: $55K
    Medical Social Workers: $51K

    The bachelor's, master's and doctorate degree requirements haven't made that much of a difference for these other professions ... at least financially. RN's are doing just as well if not better even though 70 percent of the nursing programs in the state are ADN.

    Why? Because California has nursing unions. Not only do they negotiate better wages but they got the ratio law passed which raised wages even further. And, that will continue in 2008 when ratios will be reduced even more.

    Unions are also a major reason why RT's still only make $55K a year even though they put roughly the same amount of time into their education as ADN RN's ... because the RT's don't have their own union like the RN's do.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Feb 19, '07
  8. by   primitive
    nursing like the rest of the medical field is about MONEY. I am not surprise by any changes that take place in the medical field. Techs are replacing nurses in every field. Are they better or cheaper staff? Let's face it in a few years another picture will arise in nursing and there is not a way to prevent them from happening. Nurses have lost their image as professional caregivers, if techs can and do replace us.
  9. by   lindarn
    Quote from primitive
    nursing like the rest of the medical field is about MONEY. I am not surprise by any changes that take place in the medical field. Techs are replacing nurses in every field. Are they better or cheaper staff? Let's face it in a few years another picture will arise in nursing and there is not a way to prevent them from happening. Nurses have lost their image as professional caregivers, if techs can and do replace us.
    I will say it again- Nurses' low level of education make us ripe for replacement by lower educated- unlicensed personnel. And yes, nurses have asked for this to occur by not demanding that our nursing leaders support us, and not hospital administration. We have not been strong enough to fight for our profession. Nurses have refused unionization in the face of the absolute worst threats to our profession, and even today, in areas where unions are needed the most (the Midwest,Texas, the South, areas like Georgia, Virginia, etc), nurses still allow themselves to be intimidated by administration and refuse/fight unionization.

    We have allowed our State BONs to dumb down and deskill our profession, to allow hospitals and nursing homes to hire HS dropouts to do our jobs. We sit on our hands and complain but no one takes action, and those of us who do, or did, are not supported in any way shape or form by the rest of our co- workers.

    Where did the notion of being unionized is unprofessional, and not making a BSN entry into practice come from? Hospitals who had the most to lose by nurses taking control of their profession. Consider the source. Nurses are so easily intimidated and pushed around, that is it any wonder that the public doesn't accept us as professionals? It has been an easy sell to the public that replacing us with unskilled personnel is not a big deal. What is the differance between a nurses aide with six weeks of OJT, and an LPN/LVN with only two semesters of post HS education? Or an ADN with a blue collar associates degree? Not much. We have shot ourselves in the foot by not educationally distancing oursleves from blue collar counterparts. It is all about IMAGE.

    Do you see the public school teachers and college professors (with Masters Degrees and up), worrying about being replaced by unlicensed, minimally educated teachers assistants? Isn't the cost of college and our property taxes that fund the public schools going up every year? Why not? Because the public will never allow it or accept it, and they have always had a very powerful union to protect them, and did not worry their little heads about being considered "unprofessional". Nurses salaries are being blamed for the high cost of health care, why not the cost of public education, and college? They have the job protection and use it to their advantage. We do a poor job of communicating to the public what our functions are and how important we are to the public's safety. We have been hamstringed due to nurses having no workplace protection, and refusing to obtain workplace protection by unionizing. We were prevented from going to the public by "right to work" and, "at will" laws", that gave us no protection in the workplace.

    I saw this happening ten years ago, when the S#%! hit the fan, and hospitals started to lay off nurses, and trying to run the place without us. The tested to waters to see how hard they could push us, and we failed miserably and collapsed. It was a practice run for what was going to happen in the future, and the future is now.

    It is not too late to turn it around, The California Nurses Association, a few other state nurses associaions, and the NNOC, are doing a remarkable job of gaining back some of what was lost, and in making even more inroads into safe nurse practice through staffing ratios.

    The time is now, and nurses need to band together, and demand change and support from the State BONs. Get active in the legislative process, and fight efforts by hospitals from deskilling any more of our professional practice.

    Write letters to the editor with the statistics from the IOM study, that correlates nurse staffing ratios with patient outcomes. Teachers do this all of the time, and fight attempts to enlarge class size, and what a teachers assistant can do.

    No one ever died because they couldn't do long division, diagram a sentence, or recite the Gettysburg Address. How many patients have died from short staffing, medical mistakes due to nurses having too many patients to care for, short staffing? The time is now to effect change in our profession, and take it back.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Feb 26, '07 : Reason: grammer and spelling
  10. by   RNIN46
    I totally agree! RN's need to continue their educations! Get certified in your area of expertise! Start doing some evidence based research specific to your unit! Join a Nursing Society! The money helps to promote Nursing as a profession! Continue for BS, Masters...I believe this is 1 way of taking our PROFESSION to the right level and start being recoginzed and having more of a voice.
  11. by   troutfishinEMT
    My last day as a student nurse, about to graduate, on what looked like a fairly easy stick - I blew an attempt to start an IV. I thought it was just my inexperience. But, the nurse I was working with also blew it. Her friend couldn't get one going, and finally, the charge nurse could not get an IV going, either. Four tries, and no luck.

    A paramedic working as an ACP (although I'm sure he got paid a little more than most) started an IV in the pt without a problem.

    Most times in my experience, and especially in this one - techs are not low wage-earners looking to replace us - they are friends and assets who could never be replaced - just like nurses.
  12. by   hlfpnt
    Yes, I eventually want my BSN, but if not for the available ASN programs I would not have been able to go to nursing school at all. There was no way I could have payed tuition & books on a university level & still meet my needs. But the ASN degree has given me that ability...I'm doing what I've always wanted to do, I have a better paying job & my employer has a tuition assistance program. I agree that nurses should further their education, but I have to do it the only way I can afford to do it...the long way around!
  13. by   heynursie
    Yes, I feel it's unfair that AD programs tack more and more classes on to their curricullum making it difficult to finish in 2 years, it takes atleast 3 years. Oh and then when you go back to college to obtain your BSN it takes another 2 years!! It would have been easier to just to obtain my BSN.

close