BSN's vs. Community college - page 9

Hi all. I just wanted to say that nurses with BSN's in my opinion should be paid more, and have preference in the hiring process. In community college they basically pay you to go, and at a... Read More

  1. by   goettin98
    I'm in the same boat as jennbn who posted above. At the time I was considering nursing school, it just was not financially possible for me to go to a BSN school. The only one around me for 50 miles was a small, private liberal arts college that runs close to $30,000/year. I was working full time at a nursing home that was 20 miles in the other direction (on top of the 50 miles) of the nearest state school (and still continued to all during nursing school), so the commute wasn't worth it. I went to the ADN school and got it over with. I got hired on the spot in the only place I applied for. Plus, in my state, we learned in nursing school that there is absolutely no pay difference between ADN and BSN. I'm really only planning to work for a couple more years until my husband and I have a child, so I doubt I'll do the RN-BSN program.
  2. by   Jerico
    ORIGINALLY posted by WhimsieRN 03/26/2006 0428pm: (18 MONTHS ago)

    (He/She is referring to the ADN vs BSN predicament the profession of nursing finds itself in...)

    "I'm still looking at other older posts, but I am not really getting anything except a whole lot of division and acrimony on the subject. It is really disheartning to know that this goes on in the work place all the time.
    The whole ego... I've got the bigger education than you, I am a better nurse than you b/c you don't have an adequate education thing... it is just disgusting. And I really resent having to take a position on something I find so repulsive."

    I could not AGREE with this poster's observation more!

    At times it appears to be a "nanny-nanny-boo-boo my Daddy's bigger than your Daddy" thing between two little kids on the playground, doesn't it?

    THAT is the way it appears to outsiders and patients, too.
    THAT is why there is a division between MDs and DOs.

    THAT is WHY the nursing profession as a WHOLE (that is ANY of US who invest our LICENSES, time, money, effort, blood, sweat and tears to healing, aiding, caring for patients) need to SUPPORT the activity of UNIFYING nurses through ONE unified definition of what a "PROFESSIONAL NURSE" is!

    (Hell, the PUBLIC can't tell who is a nurse and who isn't anymore! Sometimes I feel like a stealth health care provider!)

    I contend that instead of being a PART of the PROBLEM help be the SOLUTION.

    ALL of us need to DEMAND the boards of nursing in EVERY state REQUIRE a MINIMUM EDUCATION of having a bachelor's in order to be REGISTERED nurses. WHY???

    A) BECAUSE we cannot rest our laurels on ONLY behavior being the definition of a "professional". BEHAVIORS are SUBJECTIVE!

    B) BECAUSE education is MEASUREABLE. It DEFINES the rule of "LAW". If X happens then you get Y.

    C) BECAUSE two LEVELS of education and same PAY is not equitable and it therefore will CAUSE splitting of the population. It is HUMAN nature to want to be treated FAIRLY and JUSTLY. When fairness and justness exist there is relative PEACE among workers. This is WHY communism or socialism will ALWAYS be unstable political states with unhappy and fearful workers. This is why women keep fighting with men for equal PAY for equal education. Humans are attracted to DEFINED parameters, justness, and fairness.





    Scenario:

    Teacher: "Janie, you must complete 90% of this homework assignment to get an A". Janie works her butt off because she KNOWS if she does her BEST she will get the A and then she will get to go to the movies on Saturday.

    Teacher: "Mary, you must complete 80% of this homework assignment to get an A". Mary works (but doesn't work her butt off) because she knows she only has to get an 80 and she will get to go to the movies on Saturday.

    MARY to Janie at lunch: "I got an A, Janie, I get to go to the movies on Saturday, too. Wanna go with me?".

    Wonder why Janie doesn't want to go but goes anyway but secretly RESENTS Mary?

    She's a girl and girls are expected to be nice and suck it up.

    Nursing has to STOP sucking it up.

    The teacher is the boards of nursing.
  3. by   Jerico
    .....and the movie is taking the NCLEX.
    Last edit by Jerico on Sep 14, '07 : Reason: used wrong word
  4. by   scooterRN52
    Quote from Sheri257
    I realize this is an old topic, and maybe this thread will be deleted. But I have a slightly different question on the issue. Is a BSN really a BSN anymore? I'm talking about all of these accelerated BSN programs.

    I don't know about other programs, but the BSN program in my area only requires an extra semester than the surrounding ADN programs. You don't need another degree or anything else besides basic pre-reqs. Because this program is so short, it basically emphasizes more theory and less clinicals than the surrounding ADN programs.

    Normally I would agree that a BSN is better, assuming that it's a four year program involving more theory, clinical training, etc. But if accelerated BSN programs are becoming so abbreviated, you have to wonder about what does a BSN really mean anymore?

    I raise this issue not so much to debate ADN versus BSN, but to examine these accelerated BSN programs and what that really means. If the time frame is basically the same, is an accelerated BSN really that different from an ADN these days? Except, perhaps, emphasis on different areas and a different title?

    I'm not saying that accelerated BSNs are a bad thing. I just wondering if we're debating titles more than anything else. :spin:
    We are debating titles, my Liscence says professional nurse and I think anyone who has RN after their name is a registered nurse they don't pay more if you have a BSN. T his thread is going nowhere.:trout:
  5. by   jjjoy
    Quote from Jerico
    Teacher: "Mary, you must complete 80% of this homework assignment to get an A". Mary works (but doesn't work her butt off) because she knows she only has to get an 80 and she will get to go to the movies on Saturday.
    I'd change your analogy a bit...

    The students need to pass a test to go to the movies. Mary worked her butt off and passed the test with a "C." Janie worked her butt off longer (let's say there was an extra credit assignment to get the A) and got an "A."

    They both get to go to the movies. They run into one of their teachers who says to Janie "It's so wonderful you got an 'A' You're a great student with a great future." Mary resents Janie because the teacher is making over Janie and Mary feels that her accomplishment is being ignored. Later they run into another teacher who says "You two must have passed that hard test! That's a hard test, isn't it? But all that matters is that you pass it!" Now Janie feels resentful because her extra effort to get the A is ignored. She put in more time than Mary and yet in the eyes of this teacher, there is no difference.
    Last edit by jjjoy on Sep 14, '07
  6. by   Aimee03
    I wish people weren't absurd about ADN degrees. I have a ADN, want and will soon do my RN-BSN-MSN. The thing that qualifies me to get the EXACT, SAME pay as BSN rns is the fact that I passed the SAME NCLEX as the BSN people. I am a RN just like they are a RN. That's it. I did save A LOT of money and time by going to a community college. In fact my Community college has higher board passing scores than most of the universities. I guess we are doing something right!
  7. by   Jerico
    Quote from jjjoy
    I'd change your analogy a bit...

    The students need to pass a test to go to the movies. Mary worked her butt off and passed the test with a "C." Janie worked her butt off longer (let's say there was an extra credit assignment to get the A) and got an "A."

    They both get to go to the movies. They run into one of their teachers who says to Janie "It's so wonderful you got an 'A' You're a great student with a great future." Mary resents Janie because the teacher is making over Janie and Mary feels that her accomplishment is being ignored. Later they run into another teacher who says "You two must have passed that hard test! That's a hard test, isn't it? But all that matters is that you pass it!" Now Janie feels resentful because her extra effort to get the A is ignored. She put in more time than Mary and yet in the eyes of this teacher, there is no difference.
    If it takes working one's butt off to just get a C then perhaps she SHOULD go to an ADN program because she probably isn't going to get into a BSN nursing program.
  8. by   scooterRN52
    Quote from Aimee03
    I wish people weren't absurd about ADN degrees. I have a ADN, want and will soon do my RN-BSN-MSN. The thing that qualifies me to get the EXACT, SAME pay as BSN rns is the fact that I passed the SAME NCLEX as the BSN people. I am a RN just like they are a RN. That's it. I did save A LOT of money and time by going to a community college. In fact my Community college has higher board passing scores than most of the universities. I guess we are doing something right!
    My feelings exactly!!!!! I am an ADN also for the past 18 years!:spin:


    Thank- you!!!!
  9. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from Jerico
    If it takes working one's butt off to just get a C then perhaps she SHOULD go to an ADN program because she probably isn't going to get into a BSN nursing program.
    I hate to tell you but in my home area, it is easier to get into the local BSN program than the local ADN program. The local BSN programs cost more, have a much poorer NCLEX pass rate, one can get in with a lower GPA, and the closest one has had problems keeping it's NLN accreditation.

    It would be nice if people stopped the sniping trivial comments that clearly display a lack of knowledge, and also a lack of "professionalism".

    I do not cut down people who seek a higher degree - education is a good thing. But there is a basic educational level for RNs and it lies in the typical three year program for ADNs/Diploma level. If one wishes to exceed it for more advancement, more power to them.

    But professionalism, lies in how one behaves and carries oneself....and that has nothing to do with professionalism. I have walked into some of the best hospitals in this Nation and been taken for the Charge nurse, the research nurse, or the NP. Why? Because I care about my job , I educate myself, not in theory or "management", but in what counts. I tell them about ATGAM, about how HD IL2 works, and the side effects. About the differences between leucoreduced cells, HLA matched, washed and irradiated and why which pt requires which. I can quote the ballpark ranges for procrit, neulasta, lovenox - and explain to the MD that in most facilities, MS Contin tablets cost about the same, no matter the dosage....thus helping the patient by getting their 3 - 30mg tabs to a single 100mg, which will be cheaper, easier to swallow and more effective. I can calm my freaked out leukemia patient getting their first dose of chemo or second bone marrow aspiration, with medication but also by talking to them about stories, sights, and scenes of their life, so that they are distracted and the fear dissipates.

    Has a masters degree requirement helped our patients? You know, the reason why we are here,...the patient. Well, now, getting an OT consult takes several days to a week in community hospitals, instead of being a same day procedure. Getting a PT consult at Hopkins requires several days....days in which my cancer patient could have been rehabbed and out of the hospital, enjoying life.

    And life, when measured in minutes and hours, instead of years becomes a valuable commodity.

    One of the higher ranked hospitals that I have worked (and I have worked several), had one of the worst records among the nurses for med issues with the pharmacy. Problems included wrong meds, delayed meds, incomplete processing of chemo orders, inaccurate transcription of chemo orders, mag sent up marked with labels for ABX, pyxis not being refilled, declining to fill med orders for various reasons, and never notifying the MD/nurse, not filling narcotic reorders on a timely basis. Trying having your cancer patient wait 4 hours for morphine....in a major oncology center, because they ran out.

    Why the problems...because many of these tasks, because of lack of PharmDs ...are facilitated by techs. And the PharmDs are paid well, but seriously overextended.

    Is this what you want for our patients...and for nurses?

    I don't care how much respect I might get or how high the pay, it wouldn't be enough to work in that environment.

    I don't look to other people for respect... I only look to myself and G-d for that. But I could not respect myself and my work, pushing me farther from the patient and turning into commodity rather than an intergral part of health care. And these days PT and OT are beoming more of a luxury item. Nursing care should not be a luxury service.

    As far as respect, pay and job security, we can look to Canada, ND, and the Philippines for the benefits of the BSN. But we don't have to look far...many of them are here, preferring the respect afforded our "lesser educated" nurse culture.

    Would making us all have an equal education change the bickering...certainly not. It would not make one iota of difference. People will also bicker over trivial class and caste issues...it is human nature. Some of us choose to accept those differences. Others choose to expend way too much energy and time on them.
  10. by   San Diego New Grad
    Hi everyone--new member and first time poster here.

    This may have been addressed in another post in this thread, so my apologies if this is redundant, but I didn't want to read through every single one. I've heard this "debate" over and over and I don't think there is any good or definitive answer. Is community college "less" of a school than a university? What about a state school vs. and ivy league school? Or what about graduating from a BSN program in the "top 10" vs. the "top 100"? How about a 2.0 GPA from a university vs. a 4.0 from a CC? Are they equal because one was a BSN and the other an ASN? What about NCLEX scores? It might be interesting to see the pass rates and scores of BSN vs ASN prepared nurses. And then we can go further into the whole health care tier--CRNA's vs Family practice MD's? I would venture to say that although the CRNA doesn't have a doctorate, (s)he deserves more pay because of the job. Or what about an PNP and the pediatrician? They pretty much do the same thing--and they can both write scripts. So there's the debate on moving the NP programs to doctorate rather than master's degrees. It's never going to end.

    We used the same textbooks as the BSN programs. My instructors were just as equally prepared as the ones who taught at the big univeristy--MSN's, PhD's, and NP's. In fact, one of them is also an adjunct professor at the university's MSN program and taught us how to read EKG's. When I was doing clinicals on a telemetry floor, a new BSN grad from the U of Washington was surprised that I could interpret rhythms because she never learned that in nursing school. Not only could I interpret rhythms, I also knew the clinical significance of the more common ones and knew how to implement nursing interventions. (My cardiac instructor ROCKED!)

    School does not always prepare you for real life, so I don't think that a few extra letters automatically gives you extra knowledge or skill. The amount of education/school isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of deserving more pay.
  11. by   Chloe'sinNYNow
    Quote from San Diego New Grad
    Hi everyone--new member and first time poster here.

    This may have been addressed in another post in this thread, so my apologies if this is redundant, but I didn't want to read through every single one. I've heard this "debate" over and over and I don't think there is any good or definitive answer. Is community college "less" of a school than a university? What about a state school vs. and ivy league school? Or what about graduating from a BSN program in the "top 10" vs. the "top 100"? How about a 2.0 GPA from a university vs. a 4.0 from a CC? Are they equal because one was a BSN and the other an ASN? What about NCLEX scores? It might be interesting to see the pass rates and scores of BSN vs ASN prepared nurses. And then we can go further into the whole health care tier--CRNA's vs Family practice MD's? I would venture to say that although the CRNA doesn't have a doctorate, (s)he deserves more pay because of the job. Or what about an PNP and the pediatrician? They pretty much do the same thing--and they can both write scripts. So there's the debate on moving the NP programs to doctorate rather than master's degrees. It's never going to end.

    We used the same textbooks as the BSN programs. My instructors were just as equally prepared as the ones who taught at the big univeristy--MSN's, PhD's, and NP's. In fact, one of them is also an adjunct professor at the university's MSN program and taught us how to read EKG's. When I was doing clinicals on a telemetry floor, a new BSN grad from the U of Washington was surprised that I could interpret rhythms because she never learned that in nursing school. Not only could I interpret rhythms, I also knew the clinical significance of the more common ones and knew how to implement nursing interventions. (My cardiac instructor ROCKED!)

    School does not always prepare you for real life, so I don't think that a few extra letters automatically gives you extra knowledge or skill. The amount of education/school isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of deserving more pay.

    Hi San Diego,
    yes indeed this topic is as old as the sand between Moses' toes already, but not the way acadamians (?) choose to deal w/ it. Many of us overpaying 2nd degree students argued w/ our own faculty about being gypped in clinical hours compared to the community colleges and were told we actually were receiving just as many if not more and they proved it by showing us the numbers in plain black and white.

    If anything when i had my summer externship, I met other student nurses fr all over the state schools who concurred. So it's more a matter of where we were lucky enough to get our clinicals, who instructed us, who precepted us along that path. Not to mention, where we chose to get our externships or IF. Some of my classmates didn't get that experience b/c they chose not to for personal reasons (family, free time, other...)

    The main theme from my BSN school director was not to sweat the technical skills, but learn the basics. All else would come w/ training on the job b/c our school lectures were supposed to teach us to critically think. So far that has gotten me graduated, thru boards on my first attempt w/ minimal questions, and to a job offering. I found a position in a local hospital that agrees too. They love new grads and don't expect me to know anything! And remain grateful for me not having to un-learn bad habits fr elsewhere.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's all relative to our experiences, but the schools seem to know that they are competing w/ each other and for our warm bodies. They know that they have to offer minimum clinical hours in addition to all else lectures. (personally my school could have been more liberal in their lab availability and offerings, but alas, they were in charge; guess I learned my first act of humility there. LOL )

    Chloe
    RN-BSN, BA
  12. by   scooterRN52
    Quote from San Diego New Grad
    Hi everyone--new member and first time poster here.

    This may have been addressed in another post in this thread, so my apologies if this is redundant, but I didn't want to read through every single one. I've heard this "debate" over and over and I don't think there is any good or definitive answer. Is community college "less" of a school than a university? What about a state school vs. and ivy league school? Or what about graduating from a BSN program in the "top 10" vs. the "top 100"? How about a 2.0 GPA from a university vs. a 4.0 from a CC? Are they equal because one was a BSN and the other an ASN? What about NCLEX scores? It might be interesting to see the pass rates and scores of BSN vs ASN prepared nurses. And then we can go further into the whole health care tier--CRNA's vs Family practice MD's? I would venture to say that although the CRNA doesn't have a doctorate, (s)he deserves more pay because of the job. Or what about an PNP and the pediatrician? They pretty much do the same thing--and they can both write scripts. So there's the debate on moving the NP programs to doctorate rather than master's degrees. It's never going to end.

    We used the same textbooks as the BSN programs. My instructors were just as equally prepared as the ones who taught at the big univeristy--MSN's, PhD's, and NP's. In fact, one of them is also an adjunct professor at the university's MSN program and taught us how to read EKG's. When I was doing clinicals on a telemetry floor, a new BSN grad from the U of Washington was surprised that I could interpret rhythms because she never learned that in nursing school. Not only could I interpret rhythms, I also knew the clinical significance of the more common ones and knew how to implement nursing interventions. (My cardiac instructor ROCKED!)

    School does not always prepare you for real life, so I don't think that a few extra letters automatically gives you extra knowledge or skill. The amount of education/school isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of deserving more pay.
    I agree with you, as I have an ADN from a community college and by tne way, they had better pass scores than universities and 4 year programs. I have been a nurse for 18 years.
  13. by   Tweety
    Quote from scooterRN52
    I agree with you, as I have an ADN from a community college and by tne way, they had better pass scores than universities and 4 year programs. I have been a nurse for 18 years.
    It the opposite here, in fact the BSN program had the highest success rate in the state for several years 97% and 100% is not uncommon, whereas the 3 ADN programs typically are in the 85%.

    You can't generalize one way or the other.

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