BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it.

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10 initiative.

About 3 years ago I sat on a council charged with evaluating and making recommendations on the educational requirements for Nursing. We worked closely with both employers and schools of Nursing to evaluate needs and capabilities and to coordinate the two.

We initially reviewed the evidence, most notably Linda Aiken's work on the relationship between educational level and quality of Nursing care. On the surface her work seems to clearly support the BSN model, however upon closer inspection we could not show that improved Nursing specific outcomes were due to higher proportions of BSN nurses, at least in terms of a BSN being causative rather than just correlative. While her studies did show a relationship between better outcomes and Hospitals with a higher proportion of BSN Nurses, she failed to adequately account for the fact that Hospitals with higher proportions of BSN nurses also have many factors that would be likely to contribute to better outcomes. For instance, predominately BSN hospitals (teaching hospitals) tend to have better staffing ratios, better support systems, better funding, and are more likely to be "early adopters" of practice improvements. Aiken's accounting for the effects of these differences were grossly inadequate. When her data was properly corrected for these differences, there was no clear difference between ADN and BSN prepared Nurses in areas examined.

We then looked at differences in curriculum between ADN and BSN programs and found surprisingly few differences. Pre-requisites varied among both ADN and BSN programs, with the only consistent difference being that BSN programs required a Nutrition class. We had assumed that the Statistics requirement was also a universal difference, but what we found was that this was only different in older ADN programs, newer ADN programs carried the same statistics requirement with some requiring a higher level of statistics than even the top BSN program in the state. In the program itself, the curriculum is closely regulated by both accreditation groups and the State Board, both of which hold the curriculum of both types of program to the same standards, minus the BSN program's additional leadership and community health classes.

Considering the minimal differences between ADN and BSN curriculum, we questioned whether there might be differences related to the 'caliber' of student admitted to each type of program, we were particularly surprised by what we found. Two of the ADN programs in the state required a previous bachelor's degree to even apply, more were considering this. The typical minimum GPA in core prerequisites for competitive entry ADN programs was 3.8, for BSN programs it was 3.6.

The biggest factor was what we would need to do to move to only BSN programs. Our current BSN programs already have a shortage of clinical spots, so expanding our current BSN programs was not an option. The only viable option was to take our ADN programs and simply start calling them BSN programs by adding community health and leadership classes and requiring the additional "general" credits needed to fulfill the credit requirements of a bachelors. To do this, community colleges would have to partner with Universities who would then grant BSN's for a (large) fee. This would essentially mean the only difference between an ADN and BSN would be 8 core credits, about 35 general credits, and about $18,000.

The other concern with limiting RN education opportunities to BSN programs by expanding BSN programs was the demographic makeup of Nursing students. More than half of those currently going into Nursing are "second career" students. These students typically are not in positions where attending a direct BSN program is feasible. In my state, BSN programs are only available in two urban areas. It's much easier for an 18 year old to drop everything and move to one of these two areas than it is for someone who has kids in school, owns a home, has a spouse with an immovable job, etc. As a result we were concerned about the effect such a drastic change in Nursing student demographics might have.

A survey of employers found no glaring preference for BSN prepared Nurses in my state, in fact we were surprised at the number of Hospitals that expressed a preference for ADN new grads as they found their bedside training requirements were less, this was likely due to the limitations in clinical experience in BSN programs. Only one hospital in the state expressed a preference for BSN graduates, although they did not require a BSN, this was the Hospital associated with the state's largest BSN program. They did express that their preference for BSN's was somewhat self-serving; when part of the job market is "BSN-only", it helps maintain demand for a degree that's fairly similar yet typically 400% more expensive than the ADN option. This would seem to shed some light on why "BSN-only" employers are primarily hospitals associated with Universities.

In the end we determined that we could not support the goal of BSN as entry to practice at this time. We did however endorse the concept of BSN-in-10 through ADN to BSN programs. Although we didn't go so far as to advocate BSN-in-10 as a requirement. This was partly due to reviewing North Dakota's failed BSN-in-10 attempt, as well as the demographics involved in the Nursing workforce. The number of experienced Nurses who leave the workforce is a real problem. This attrition often occurs between 5 and 10 years. Adding a requirement that will take additional time as well as cost, in many cases, up to half of their yearly salary would too often serve as the primary factor in a decision to leave Nursing. There are huge advantages to additional schooling after a period of time in the workforce, one could argue advantages that exceed that of direct BSN programs, however it was not felt that the loss of experienced Nurses outweighed those advantages. But when feasible, all ADN Nurses should be actively encouraged to pursue an ADN to BSN.

As a BSN prepared Nurse, I was expecting confirmation that my money was spell spent, and I'm not saying it necessarily wasn't, however many of the assumptions I held may have been overstated or just incorrect. For many, direct BSN programs are worth the expense, for other's it's not. What's most important is that students can make an informed decision.

Honey, I have wiping hineys since I was 17 yrs old. Never turned away from one yet. I work very hard, so don't assume.

I'm simply responding to what you wrote, which is part of this quote:That's sad if you think you're a glorified butt wiper. Where do you work that they would even pay an RN to be a butt wiper? They must be hard up.

Are you not implying that YOU don't wipe them? You must not work in a hospital, because nurses wipe'm all the time.

Ohhh...okay, so you make assumptions but I'm not supposed to?

I'm surprised that a nurse would even read that statement as saying, "nurses don't wipe butts."

What I was actually saying is (and it seems clear to me at least), I don't know where an RN would work that "butt wiper" would be the first job responsibility that comes to mind and/or how he or she would describe their job.

A CNA's role is much more important than "butt wiper" so I just find it ridiculous that an RN would say they don't need a higher education to wipe butts. That would be correct though if your job was "butt wiper." However, since an RN's job is so much more than that, I don't see that any facility would hire an RN whose main role is butt wiper when they could pay someone much less to do just that.

It's interesting that the thought process is, "You don't need a master's degree to wipe butts" though. So, does that mean that you DO need an associate's or bachelor's degree to be a butt wiper?

Whatever....it's just a dumb thing to say and actually sad if the value you put on your role in patient care is butt wiper and coke delivery person regardless of what's on your name badge.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
Did you even read what I said?

"Butt wiper" is typically how an uneducated non-nurse views a nurse.

Random person: "What did you go to school for?"

Nurse: "Oh, I went to school for nursing. I'm an RN."

Random person: "Oh, so you're a butt wiper."

Seriously? I think it's pitiful if a CNA even labels themselves as a butt wiper, but an RN saying "Who needs one of them there edumications to wipe ace?!" is just ignorant and doesn't help the misconception that nurses are just "overpaid butt wipers."

Yep, requiring a masters degree for floor nurses will really help that misconception on being "overpaid butt wipers." Then it'll be "overpaid, overeducated butt wipers with no career sense." Sign me up!

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
Who do you think wipes them when the CNA's are cut?[/quote

An even better question is, why do you wait for the CNA to be cut to wipe them?

Reading comprehension, it's what's for breakfast.

Yep, requiring a masters degree for floor nurses will really help that misconception on being "overpaid butt wipers." Then it'll be "overpaid, overeducated butt wipers with no career sense." Sign me up!

When have I EVER (ever, ever) said anything about floor nurses needing a master's degree??

The only conversation that I participated in about a master's degree was speaking about nursing faculty. You have to have a master's degree to be a nurse educator which really has nothing to do with having too many ADN/BSN prepared nurses or ADN/BSN nursing schools. There are too many RN's being churned out, true. There are NOT too many master's prepared nurses being churned out to staff faculty positions because most people who are going to get a master's degree in nursing are going to be an NP or do something where they are paid MORE than a floor nurse, not less.

Reading comprehension, it's what's for breakfast.

Exactly my point in the first place. :rolleyes:

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.

I don't see that any facility would hire an RN whose main role is butt wiper when they could pay someone much less to do just that.

So, I can only find that you are unaware of the different nursing care delivery models. BECAUSE THEY DO PAY RN'S TO DO THIS!!!!

omg.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
When have I EVER (ever, ever) said anything about floor nurses needing a master's degree??

Again, reading comprehension, it's what's for breakfast. At this point you apparently have no idea what you were even defending. Go re-read and get back to me, masters promoter.

So, I can only find that you are unaware of the different nursing care delivery models. BECAUSE THEY DO PAY RN'S TO DO THIS!!!!

omg.

I said, "they could pay someone much less to do JUST THAT."

You may want to take your own advice on reading comprehension. The keyword in that sentence was "just."

Here's your sticker. :yes:

Oh yeah, "main role" was another key phrase that was bypassed.

Again, reading comprehension, it's what's for breakfast. At this point you apparently have no idea what you were even defending. Go re-read and get back to me, masters promoter.

You obviously have some poster's names confused because I have not once in my life said that bedside nurses need a master's degree. Either that, or you are having trouble with the comprehension piece again. If you can find one time where I ever said a bedside nurse needs/should have/would be better with a master's degree or anything of the sort then I'll change my name to butt wiper.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.

I said, "they could pay someone much less to do JUST THAT."

You may want to take your own advice on reading comprehension. The keyword in that sentence was "just."

Here's your sticker. :yes:

Oh yeah, "main role" was another key phrase that was bypassed.

Yep, and "just that" only has one meaning.

I can't really explain the other way "just that" can be read. At this point I'd just be trying to teach a pig to sing.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
You obviously have some poster's names confused because I have not once in my life said that bedside nurses need a master's degree. Either that, or you are having trouble with the comprehension piece again. If you can find one time where I ever said a bedside nurse needs/should have/would be better with a master's degree or anything of the sort then I'll change my name to butt wiper.

No actually I don't need to do that at all. If you want to jump in defending others' posts, then maybe you should read all of the posts so you know exactly what you're defending. Don't know what to tell ya.

Yep, and "just that" only has one meaning.

I can't really explain the other way "just that" can be read. At this point I'd just be trying to teach a pig to sing.

You'd have better luck teaching a pig to sing than you would with finding a post where I ever said bedside nurses should have a master's degree. That's for sure.

You know, it's really ridiculous that just because someone doesn't agree on ONE particular issue (oh...like the ADN/BSN as entry into practice, for example) that every other topic has to be misconstrued, misinterpreted, have information omitted, etc. just to raise an argument even where there isn't one.

There are plenty of actual things that have been said to disagree about without creating arguments that don't exist.

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