ADN's being pushed out - page 13

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned... Read More

  1. by   lmccrn62
    I have been a nurse for 30 yrs. I love what I do and proud of my accomplishments. Nursing as a profession needs to get itself together. Of all of the other healthcare jobs nursing has the lowest entry level of all the others. Why is that? As nurses we should demand high level of education. As nurses today we cannot just think we can do as we always did. Nurses need to be researchers, budget minded, understanding if healthcare and educators to name a few. While I was a ADN when I entered the field I noticed to be the best you have to continually advance ourselves. Magnet institutions have shown BSN and having certification have better patient outcomes. Aiken was on target. All research can be dissected but she is top in her field and her research has carried weight. So rather then complaining about wanting to raise the bar we need to support our professionalism.
  2. by   SuzieVN
    And after that, the BSNs will all be required to get a doctorate, and then be $250,000 in debt. But by the time the downward wage pressure has gotten that far, an RN will be making $10 an hour. The same cycle has been affecting, say physical therapists, for years- even as obtaining therapy services increases to become more difficult, since nobody wants to pay for it? Ask, and you shall receive.
  3. by   SuzieVN
    You must live under a rock, don't you know about the 'nursing shortage' the politicos keep screaming about?
  4. by   SuzieVN
    That was in reply to HeatherMax, I left out her quote!
  5. by   HeatherMax
    LOL...I totally forgot about the nursing shortage!
  6. by   Rnandsoccermom
    IRB? I'm afraid I don't know what that means. I have issues with the study because you won't be able to consistently replicate results without ALL states and hospitals following the same study conditions. When will a mandate be put forth that the USA requires as a country all RNs have a BSN for a minimum to be employed like other countries? Will there be a mandate for minimum staffing ratios to go along with it? I believe it is difficult to have one without the other. The for profit institutions are proving this. Again I have a friend who works for a for profit hospital- not LTACH- a private company took over a hospital in a poorer area, mostly Medicaid and MANG pending as payment. The unit is tele, on day shift they start with 5 patients and end up after discharges and admits with up to 7-8 patients. They usually get one PCT vs the one being pulled and having no PCT. The previous owners bailed out right after they got magnet status and they are just going live with a fully paperless computer system. She is miserable and they can't keep staff. They are hiring ADNs with a stipulation to get a BSN- they have no choice. Business model wins nursing loses. A study should be done there.
  7. by   avengingspirit1
    I actually have more ambition than most. With 2 degrees and several certifications, 2 cars, a house and looking to invest in a business, I'm not content to accept the status-quo. However, I'm gullible enough to spend $25,000 just to to give some academic elitists, who haven't treated a patient in a dog's age, notoriety and keep them in their cushy jobs in the fantasy work of academia.

    Bottom line: Aiken and her colleagues are provided funding and backed by the very organizations that benefit by convincing nurses to scramble back to school and coercing prospective nursing students to spend at least twice as much money attending four year bachelor nursing programs rather than attend associates and diploma programs which provide just as good or better nursing education.

    These researchers are provided funding and paid to conjure up statistics and manipulate them to prove a certain point of view. That's why the research is biased and therefore flawed.
  8. by   BostonFNP
    Do you know what a peer-reviewed publication is?

    Maybe it's not Aiken or her research that is biased. Maybe it's you that is biased and subsequently grasping at straws. If you really want to stick it to Aiken, try taking a basic research methods class, or maybe several classes. Learn how to critically review research. Her study has several flaws (as all do) yet you have failed to identify them.
  9. by   avengingspirit1
    Yes I do. And I also know what a sales pitch is. And that's what this this study as well as the previous ones are. These studies are nothing more than marketing campaigns funded and backed by the very organizations that stand to benefit by having nurses run back to school for something that has no bearing on patient care. So you can have as many people as you want who are affiliated with four year schools write in and try to cover the truth.

    Real working nurses and nurse managers have told me the BSN nurses are on the floors with their textbooks in their hands and are deficient in basic nursing skills. I go by the testimonials of real working nurses, not those who sit up in ivory towers and and haven't been on nursing floor in over a decade. I don't want to stick it to Aiken, I am only criticizing her biased research. I know she's just doing what she's being paid to do. It's nothing personal, just business.

    As far as peer-reviewed research, have her research reviewed by people other than those who think the same way she does. Also, talk to real working nurses and hear what they have to say. Until then, I will continue to work with the media to get the story out about what a farce the BSN push is. Stories have already been done about general degree inflation. Now we're working on something specifically geared to nursing.
  10. by   dt70
    Quote from foreverLaur
    One hospital I was interested says:
    "Graduated from an NLNAC or CCNE accredited nursing baccalaureate program (BSN). Candidates graduating from an Associates Degree-to-BSN or LPN-to-BSN programs are not eligible"

    Does that include absn also ?
    Did they provide a list of acceptable schools to attend?
    Is blue tint contacts ok or do I need to have natural blue eyes?
  11. by   nursel56
    Nobody, not even Linda Aiken herself has said that the results of her study offer proof of a cause and effect relationship between the percentage of BSN nurses employed in direct care roles and patient outcome/failure to rescue rates. It is usually people who aren't very familiar with her work or who are employing it for political purposes who state there is a direct causal relationship. You just have to read the abstract to see the limitations and questionable conclusions she makes. Here is one that is at least debatable..

    "Nurses' years of experience were not found to be a significant predictor of mortality or failure to rescue in the full models."

    Educational Levels of Hospital Nurses and Surgical Patient Mortality - it's an eye-opener.

    The links below are just some of what is out there and mostly associated with the AACC, representing community colleges, as opposed to the AACN, representing the 4 yr colleges such as the University of Pennsylvania. One contains a succinct list of flaws in the 2003 study methodology. I only mention that because there are people who believe that the Aiken group is an objective group of scholars and the experts the AACC used are biased and not to be taken seriously. Neither one is truly objective, imo.

    A Data-Driven Examination of the Impact of Associate and Bachelor’s Degree Programs on the Nation’s Nursing Workforce.(2011)

    Associate Degree Nurses Vital to the Nation’s Health -Flawed Study Unduly Alarms Public.

    AACC Says Deceptive Study Maligns Millions of Nurses

    Critique of Study: More BSNs equal better pt outcomes
    - by an allnurses member who wrote a long and detailed post including factors not mentioned in the above articles.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Mar 25, '13
  12. by   SleeepyRN
    Quote from ajjones1322
    Agree, agree. Here in Florida they are being pushed out. But not in Chicago where my friend has yet to consider getting a BSN and is constantly getting work at just under $40/hour. In Florida the magnet facilities are pushing out nurses and it is unfair. You are hiring BSN that have little experience. The experienced nurse can provide better care. Also, you are making it hard for those re-careering into nursing. I already have many degrees. I don't want to pay for a BSN. I just want an ASN, MSN, doctorate. Might have to move.
    Not in Chicago? I'm glad your friend isn't having problems, but I live in Chicago, and there are ZERO hospitals out here that are accepting of ADNs. You either have to have a BSN or be enrolled in an RN-BSN program.
  13. by   SleeepyRN
    Quote from Anoetos
    I hope no one has ever belittled your experience. I know that I never would.

    But by the same token, I cannot tell you how many times, upon being asked what my degree is, I have been told by ADN prepared nurses that they are just as good as me. I cannot escape the inference that much of the animosity and division is driven by a sort of inferiority complex on their part.

    On the other hand, I can just imagine BSN prepared nurses going into the work environment and acting as though they were superior. I can imagine it, but, thankfully, I have not witnessed it.
    Well if we do have an inferiority complex, for many of us it stems from our experiences. When I graduated my ADN program, my parents had a graduation party for me in which I had about 30 family members attend. I was happy and proud I graduated, but when all my family members asked me what my next plans were, and I told them I was taking classes for my BSN, they all had this confused look on their faces. Some even asked, "so wait, you're not a nurse yet?" It was clear they immediately thought less of my accomplishment. Another example: when I was in nursing school working as a tech, I was asked a lot "what school do you go to?" When I answered, their reply was this "oh." I could almost hear their thoughts. Their faces and tone said it all. That my ADN program was inferior and made me less of a nursing student. I don't feel inferior to those with BSNs. I know I got a damn good education. I just wish others knew I got a damn good education too so that I can stop getting disrespected. Soon I'll have my BSN and the point will be moot for me once and for all. I can't wait.

    Oh, and the posters who say you were single, pregnant, had kids, worked full time and continued your education.... That is AWESOME. I admire you. But when you follow it up with "so if you really wanted it, you could do it too," I immediately lose some of that respect for you because you come off condescending. I was financially unable to go straight to an RN to BSN program. I had to wait til I could afford my next class. I'm still paying off loans from my first degree, and I no longer have good enough credit to obtain further loans. My education for the past 4 years has all come straight out of my pocket. And so will the next year of schooling. Some people, no matter how badly they want to continue their education, just can't right now. This "if I can do it, anybody can do it garbage, is just that. garbage. When I graduated, I immediately registered for a summer statistics class, but my husband and I got in a big fight over the money, so I didn't take the class. I worked, THEN paid for a Spring class.

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