In progress MSN... can't stand nursing theory... switching to PA school ASAP

[algebra_demystified]

I couldn't believe I was being asked to write paper after paper about Watson and her nonsense. Lately, I've talked to a couple of women who were going into nursing school and I asked them if they'd ever considered PA school. If I knew then what I know now, I would have gone the PA route.

Tonight I was talking to another one who was going into nursing and I brought up PA school.

Then I thought to myself... why don't I stop the insanity and drop out of the MSN program and move to a good PA school? I looked up the local schools, and holy smoke, I qualify for admission.

I like the science, the pathophys, pharmacology/kinetics, that stuff. It's great! I couldn't be less interested in the history of nursing. I want to treat the patient.

I guess that's it for me here.

[birthrevolution]

I too find nursing theory dumb and I'm pretty into theory. I rolled my eyes through most of our lectures on this stuff. I also bit my tongue until it bled wanting to scream "that's not theory!" or "Foucault would really disagree with that." Get through these silly classes and get on to clinicals. Why drop out now and put yourself behind in your career? Once you're out you can practice how you want. I would also check out the job market for PAs versus NPs in your area. In my region, it's mostly NPs working in places I would want to work. NPs also have more freedom to work than PAs.

My

[Music in My Heart]

Nursing theory isn't nursing, in my opinion.

Throughout my MSN program I kept waiting for them to show me that most nursing theory had any relevance to actual nursing care. They never did.

Through my first 15 months as a working RN, I've seen no functional use for any of that drivel - even that stuff that's actually legit.

I just wish that there was more hard science in nursing school and less of this psychosocial, metaphysical, new age pseudoscience.

[ImThatGuy, BSN, RN]

I think nursing pushes the crap in attempt to be identified as their own profession. They seem to really align more with psychology than anything. I agree with all of you. I couldn't care less about the psychosocial stuff. I want to learn about treating diseases, and that's why I'm in the program. I'd rather be a a PA too honestly, their programs are more science based and they don't balance their time as much trying to do lecture, lab, and clinical. They get their chance to learn science the didactic year and then go pit it into practice the clinical year. I think nursing is really deficient in its clinical education. I'm merely in a BSN program as a potential career changer. It's my second time in college. I'm glad that our program doesn't ascribe to a singular nursing theoru and has done little to teach them. The problem lies in the fact that if I elect to pursue a masters in the field I'l have to take a grad theory course that I couldn't care less about. Honestly, I wouldn't mind teaching on the college level since I used to teach high school science, but I can't push some of this onto students.

[Abby Normal]

I agree with Imthatguy that nursing pushes this stuff in an attempt to make nursing sound more professional. So if you write a dissertation, then a book then make hundreds of thousands of nursing students memorize "5 Ways to Care", then that surgeon will FINALLY take them seriously.

It obviously does the reverse. It's like a whiny little person stamping their foot and saying "Take me seriously!".

BS. Your knowledge, your experience, your authority, and not walking around with a chip on your shoulder are what make people take you seriously. So building nurses' knowledge and confidence sounds like a good goal to me -- let's do that instead.

If you don't know, in your gut, what caring is, no list and no course can teach it. It is the same with so many of these things that nursing theory is so fond of quantifying. And many of the theories are meant to be looked at and abandoned -- so why waste time on flat-earth theories?

I am a woman, but this stuff seriously embarrasses me. And I think it is a huge obstacle to men entering nursing. I watch the emt's in the back of the room squirm while this is going on, and I don't know how many of them are going to come back.

I think everyone should look into all of their options when considering a career in health care. I think unless you have a cousin or a friend, most people just think Doctor, Nurse ... . There are many people who would not be happy as nurses who would be great dental technicians, or respiratory therapists, or OR techs, or developing medical computer systems, or one of so many other jobs available. From what I understand, for the average practitioner, the differences between PAs and NPs don't matter that much. Neither one is a mistake. Nursing is probably better for me, because I'm more of a talker, but I wish I'd checked out the PA track more at the beginning. It has a lot to offer.

I have a large number of nurse, NP and MD relatives, by the way, and they agree. Nursing theory is crap, and you will never, ever use it. I hear it was way worse in the 70s -- they have some funny stories.

I have been very vocal -- respectfully and in appropriate channels -- about my feelings on this at my school. Nursing schools have changed over the years. They used to spend a lot of their time learning to cook different diets, write letters, spending hundreds of clinic hours doing nothing but making beds. It is possible that if enough people, particularly men, speak up, that we can get a more modern nursing curriculum in schools.

[ImThatGuy, BSN, RN]

LOL. Yeah I was a paramedic, and I squirm and raise an eyebrow to a lot of what goes on in class. A lot of the caring and patient body cleaning aspects are what kept me out of nursing school when I was younger. I also think these" look at me care" philosophies make other members of healthcare look down their nose at nurses as if caring about people is singular to nursing. Increase the science and application of medical knowledge in nursing school and the profession will be improved. I care about the person getting better and them moving on with their life. I don't care to care them back to healt or form close personal relationships with patients.

Anyone remember the old Carebears cartoon where the Carebears would all stand around holding hand, smiling, and saying "carebear stare" while beams would come out of the happy insignia on their stomachs and magically the grumpy and distraught would become happy? I feel like this is what nursing school wants of us...so long as we use critical thinking.

[algebra_demystified]

Why drop out now and put yourself behind in your career?

My

That is an outstanding question.

I believe that pursuing an MSN puts me behind in my career. Having worked on one has given me the personal experience to look on an MSN degree with disgust. I could not look an MSN in the eye without saying to myself, This person took Watson seriously. Her opinion means nothing to me.

What do you think about that?

I have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours researching and writing about nursing theory. It is putrid garbage. There is not a single redeeming quality to any of it.

It is as another poster put it, a Care Bear stamping her pink foot on cartoon ground, demanding respect for caring for patients.

I honestly believe that nurses deserve more respect than they are currently given. They deserve respect for their outstanding assessment skills, their finely honed documentation, their wisdom in guiding new MDs in recommending courses of treatment.

But for Grand Theory, backed by Middle Theory? It is so absurd that I had to throw thousands of dollars in the trash so that I wouldn't be tarnished by the... whatever it is that Nursing Theory is.

That said, I would like to say why I am in favor of advanced practice nursing.

In my opinion, arrogant doctors don't take the time to understand the patient. The doctor is the DOCTOR, for heaven's sake, and you should listen to him as though he was reading from one of two stone tablets.

Nurses, in general, don't have that wide and greasy streak of arrogance. They come to the patient with new eyes, assessing and communicating. They empathize and grow a relationship with the patient. That is the key to the nurse/patient relationship that MD's don't seem to get.

The nurse works with the internal motivations that the patient has in order to encourage behavior changes that will benefit the patient. The nurse takes the time to assess cultural influences that would interfere with medical diagnosis and treatment. In short, the nurse changes course to get things done. The MD changes course and orders the patient to get things done.

I've heard it said that the nurse drives quality in the patient care setting. I believe that is true.

Why would nurses need Grand Theory to get respect? Nurses are the drivers of patient behavior change... that is the most important thing.

[Music in My Heart]

That is an outstanding question.

I believe that pursuing an MSN puts me behind in my career. Having worked on one has given me the personal experience to look on an MSN degree with disgust. I could not look an MSN in the eye without saying to myself, This person took Watson seriously. Her opinion means nothing to me.

What do you think about that?

I think that it's ridiculous.

Simply because I have an MSN, my opinion means nothing to you? You'd conclude that without even talking to me or assessing my knowledge base, let alone my thoughts on nursing theory? For real?

I think your "philosophy" is much worse than nursing theory (my opinion of which I made clear in a prior post).

I learned much in my MSN of real value pertaining to risk management, operations, and systems. Yes, we were subjected to that nursing theory drivel, but for someone to conclude that my opinion is without value simply because of the degree that I earned is absurd.

[llg, PhD, RN]

I think that it's ridiculous.

Simply because I have an MSN, my opinion means nothing to you? You'd conclude that without even talking to me or assessing my knowledge base, let alone my thoughts on nursing theory? For real?

I think your "philosophy" is much worse than nursing theory (my opinion of which I made clear in a prior post).

I learned much in my MSN of real value pertaining to risk management, operations, and systems. Yes, we were subjected to that nursing theory drivel, but for someone to conclude that my opinion is without value simply because of the degree that I earned is absurd.

Thank you. You said this much better than I would have said it.

If algebra_demystified is truly incapable of respecting anyone with a graduate degree in nursing, it's probably best that he/she leave nursing -- for a lot of reasons.

[ImThatGuy, BSN, RN]

Id say go ahead and finish the MSN. You've got the theory crap knocked out it seems. Like many say, PAs and NPs are often used interchangably although PAs seem to be more involved in the surgical specialties like say ortho and derm.

[porterwoman]

I'm curious--Are you in a NP program, or in some other MSN program?

[algebra_demystified]

I think that it's ridiculous.

Simply because I have an MSN, my opinion means nothing to you? You'd conclude that without even talking to me or assessing my knowledge base, let alone my thoughts on nursing theory? For real?

I think your "philosophy" is much worse than nursing theory (my opinion of which I made clear in a prior post).

I learned much in my MSN of real value pertaining to risk management, operations, and systems. Yes, we were subjected to that nursing theory drivel, but for someone to conclude that my opinion is without value simply because of the degree that I earned is absurd.

I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but that is my opinion.

I think the two year community college nursing ADN is extremely valuable and a much higher level of education than anything I expected. What an outstanding experience that was. From looking over the curriculum of the BSN program at my local college, I think that's another outstanding education.

I'm sure it's more than many can complete due to the rigorous nature of the programs.

The MSN though, I'm sorry, it's a joke with no punchline. Of my last six classes, I've had to write papers or contribute to group projects that had Watson as the central theorist in five of them. If you can find a way to support her philosophy with a straight face, that's just an amazing feat of self deception. It's nonsense faith healing. I am astounded that this material continues to be taught in a medical program.

I'm not necessarily directing this at you personally. This is more a general finger wagging to nobody in particular.

I can't believe my school endorses her philosophy.

You might as well hire an Albularyo to rub an egg over the body of my patient, crack it into a glass half full with water, and count the bubbles around the meniscus, assuming there are the same number of people in the world giving the patient the evil eye. I see no significant difference between the two.

I would certainly look upon a coworker who burned $25,000 and two years of her life studying Grand Theory the same as I would look upon a coworker who spent $25,000 getting her Chackras cleansed or installing a magnetized mattress pad, or copper bracelets, or hanging crystals around their house, or any other kind of quackery.

My change management class was interesting, I got more out of that one than any other.

It's not that nuggets of worth cannot be found, it's more that the overwhelming preponderance of material is without redeeming value.

And there IS PA school. PA school is the study of medicine, not nursing. While I am a nurse, I prefer to study medicine to nursing, and to advance my career in that fashion.

I understand that what I have to say is seen as harsh. I apologize if that is seen as abrasive or whatever, but there are some things that simply need to have No said to them. One of them is Jean Watson's Caritas theory. It is nonsense.

If I have to say Yes to everything, then what value is there to my Yes? It's simply the duckspeak that the nursing establishment requires. I say no to things now and then. In my opinion, and opinions are like noses, that the MSN has a negative value on the whole, even though there are occasional nuggets of worth.

That is why I am voting with the hours of my day and the dollars in my wallet, throwing the crap nursing theory classes where they belong, and am moving on to PA school where I can study medicine with MD students.

If you had a choice between PA school and the MSN program, which would you choose?