Torn between Nursing and Medicine - page 5

Hello! I've posted here multiple times about dilemma I pose: my love for both nursing and medicine. I am currently a pre-nursing student, but I'm a bit hazy about my potential future as a nurse. I... Read More

  1. Visit  johndz profile page
    2
    [quote=kaitlynrs91;4766191] i realize i don't handle stress too well nor am i big on problem solving, which are more necessary for medicine because they are science oriented people.


    Kaitlyn, a nursing degree is a science degree, as an RN I have to problem solve and deal with stress daily. I think you should shadow a nurse for a few days, because if you think that nursing isn't science related, then I'm not sure that you understand what nursing really is. And if you can't problem solve, then you won't be able to pass the NCLEX. Good luck to you.
    BluegrassRN and PatMac10,RN like this.
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  3. Visit  PatMac10,RN profile page
    0
    I am not understanding what people define "real" Bio and Chemistry as. I have never seen a college that offered a different chemistry or bio for pre-med and pre-nursing students, that would be kind of dumb. Many nures that have, in recent, switched into the nursing profession had previous Bachelor of Science degrees in various areas such as Biology, Chemistry, marine science, etc..... Shoot, you can even major english and graduate with a BS in English if you take a Science oriented courses. Plenty of nurses have the same BS degrees a lot of pre-med students have when they take the MCAT and apply for entrance into Med School.
    Last edit by PatMac10,RN on Feb 4, '11
  4. Visit  10524246 profile page
    2
    Quote from PatMac10,CNA
    I am not understanding what people define "real" Bio and Chemistry as. I have never seen a college that offered a different chemistry or bio for pre-med and pre-nursing students, that would be kind of dumb. Many nures that have, in recent, switched into the nursing profession had previous Bachelor of Science degrees in various areas such as Biology, Chemistry, marine science, etc..... Shoot, you can even major english and graduate with a BS in English if you take a Science oriented courses. Plenty of nurses have the same BS degrees a lot of pre-med students have when they take the MCAT and apply for entrance into Med School.
    Most colleges and universities offer two levels of Chemistry, Biology, and Physics. One will be called a Survey of ____ and the other will be called Principles of ____. The survey class is the one required by pre-nursing students. It is essentially a watered down version of the more in depth Principles class. I've taken both Survey of Chemistry and Principles of Chemistry, and while Principles was a lot more in depth and required a lot more time studying, I still had to work really hard to get a good grade in the Survey class.
    CCL RN and DNS on the go like this.
  5. Visit  PatMac10,RN profile page
    0
    Quote from johndz
    You know, I'm not going to read this all, mainly because so much I see on AllNurses is negative towards nursing.......but for the people saying "don't bother with nursing"......get the F@#$K off this website and these boards, you aren't a nurse and you don't care about nursing. This profession has a hard enough time gaining understanding, don't add to it by being a "self-hating nurse", seriously, leave, stop commenting. Nursing is a profession by itself, it is a model of care giving, by itself. The ARNP was created to deliver higher level care within the nursing model, not to be a "junior doctor". Nursing is not a stop on the way to medicine, it is a destination of it's own right. So, LOUX, figure it out on your own, if you want to be a nurse, this community will welcome you (by and large) with open arms; otherwise, take your talents else where, and good luck. And for those of you telling LOUX that nursing is a waste of time, then take your own advice, and leave this website, and the nursing profession, you are not needed. With so many people going back to college to get nursing degrees, there will be plenty of people that really want to be a part of this profession waiting to take your place.



    P.S. To everyone else, stop posting things like "it's just my opinion", or other "polite" rebuttals to the nurse haters.......their opinions suck, and you know it.
    YOu were very blount with what you said. Lolz! But, in the end I see your point and I agree with it! Why did you come into a porfession that you underlyingly hated or didn't desire to be in from the beggining? Anyway, I know some come into nursing not really wanting to be nurses, but they learned to like it or even love it. I might not have said it the way you did, but the point is the same. To the OP, Don't let the sourness or burnt out unhappy nurses or potential nurses turn your cheek completetly. YOu ned to hear a positive side from both sides. Trust me I'm just one year older than you and have many people trying to pull me a way that they wish they would have went, not me. You'll find that many people, whether they realize it or not, will try to live their life through. Try your best to live without regrets, whichever route you choose.
  6. Visit  highlandlass1592 profile page
    2
    Quote from 10524246
    Most colleges and universities offer two levels of Chemistry, Biology, and Physics. One will be called a Survey of ____ and the other will be called Principles of ____. The survey class is the one required by pre-nursing students. It is essentially a watered down version of the more in depth Principles class. I've taken both Survey of Chemistry and Principles of Chemistry, and while Principles was a lot more in depth and required a lot more time studying, I still had to work really hard to get a good grade in the Survey class.
    Uh, no difference in the programs I went to. No "survey" stuff, it was the real deal. And it's the real deal when you go back for advanced practice nursing. May be that way near you but not me.
    PatMac10,RN and BrookeeLou_RN like this.
  7. Visit  Queen Tiye, CNA profile page
    0
    i didn't read all the posts, but an internship might be a great experience for you, with a doctor or working with nurses. it will be a invaluable learning experience and great fun.

    if you love medicine and caring for the whole person, you could do both of those as a doctor, especially having your own practice, making your own schedule, spending as much time with your patients as you see fit.

    the good news is you have so many wonderful possibilities!
  8. Visit  BluegrassRN profile page
    4
    Consider your finances as well.

    One of the docs I work with has close to 300K in student loan debt. She lives in a one bedroom, student apartment, showers in our locker room, and eats all the free food she can get. She's not married and she came from a poor background, and didn't get a lot of scholarship awards despite being a very bright gal. She's a hospitalist in part because she absolutely could not afford to buy into a practice; she didn't even consider it.

    One of my closest friends is a doc in a small town. She only has 150K in student loans for med school...but she just bought a practice for about 300K. Now she owes 450K.

    I don't make nearly as much as she does as a nurse...but I have more income after debt than she does. I paid for college with a few scholarships and cash. I have no student loan debt. She and her husband are paying more in her loan debt and for her malpractice insurance each month than my husband and I make each month combined. We live much better than they do. In 20 years? She might have a better lifestyle. Right now, she's working herself to the bone, trying to make ends meet. I work three days a week, take violin lessons, am training for a half marathon, and in general enjoy life.
    Monster41, kaitlynrs91, PatMac10,RN, and 1 other like this.
  9. Visit  PatMac10,RN profile page
    0
    Quote from 10524246
    Most colleges and universities offer two levels of Chemistry, Biology, and Physics. One will be called a Survey of ____ and the other will be called Principles of ____. The survey class is the one required by pre-nursing students. It is essentially a watered down version of the more in depth Principles class. I've taken both Survey of Chemistry and Principles of Chemistry, and while Principles was a lot more in depth and required a lot more time studying, I still had to work really hard to get a good grade in the Survey class.
    I understand what you are saying, but various levels of a course and two different sets of courses are totally different things. I've Taken ENG 111 (the first college English you must take in order to move on) via an AP course/ test in high school. SO the summer after I graduated (June 2010) I took ENG 112 (the second english you must take in order to move up in Englishes) Now I am in ENG 114 (our school doesn't have an ENG 113 the next leve lup is straight to ENG 115.) This is just an example.Whether a med student, nursing student, or BIo Chem Student all will take the same A&P1, A&P 2, General Chem I & II, ENG 111, 112, 114, 115 etc./............... Many, nursing programs, especially BSN programs, require general chem I & II, bio chem, and Statistics and College Algebra. What I'm saying is, just because many nursing schools don't require their students to have 3 to 5 levels of each subject in science, it doesn't mean that medical students didn't have to take the same A&P 1 & 2, or General Chem and Bio Chem that nursing students or biology students had too. Even Pre-med students have to start at general chem and work up to the advanced chem and bio classes. Don't get it twisted.

    Somebody should count the number of science courses (both basic and advanced) that Pre- medical students and nursing students have to take and then see how much the difference is. How many more science/ math courses do pre-med students take than nursing students (BSN prepared Nursing students of course) ?
  10. Visit  ImThatGuy profile page
    3
    Quote from BluegrassRN
    Consider your finances as well.

    One of the docs I work with has close to 300K in student loan debt. She lives in a one bedroom, student apartment, showers in our locker room, and eats all the free food she can get. She's not married and she came from a poor background, and didn't get a lot of scholarship awards despite being a very bright gal. She's a hospitalist in part because she absolutely could not afford to buy into a practice; she didn't even consider it.

    One of my closest friends is a doc in a small town. She only has 150K in student loans for med school...but she just bought a practice for about 300K. Now she owes 450K.

    I don't make nearly as much as she does as a nurse...but I have more income after debt than she does. I paid for college with a few scholarships and cash. I have no student loan debt. She and her husband are paying more in her loan debt and for her malpractice insurance each month than my husband and I make each month combined. We live much better than they do. In 20 years? She might have a better lifestyle. Right now, she's working herself to the bone, trying to make ends meet. I work three days a week, take violin lessons, am training for a half marathon, and in general enjoy life.
    And that right there boys and girls is why I didn't go back for o-chem, review the other stuff, take the MCAT, and apply to med school.
    Faith213, netglow, and kaitlynrs91 like this.
  11. Visit  DNS on the go profile page
    2
    Quote from PatMac10,CNA
    I understand what you are saying, but various levels of a course and two different sets of courses are totally different things. I've Taken ENG 111 (the first college English you must take in order to move on) via an AP course/ test in high school. SO the summer after I graduated (June 2010) I took ENG 112 (the second english you must take in order to move up in Englishes) Now I am in ENG 114 (our school doesn't have an ENG 113 the next leve lup is straight to ENG 115.) This is just an example.Whether a med student, nursing student, or BIo Chem Student all will take the same A&P1, A&P 2, General Chem I & II, ENG 111, 112, 114, 115 etc./............... Many, nursing programs, especially BSN programs, require general chem I & II, bio chem, and Statistics and College Algebra. What I'm saying is, just because many nursing schools don't require their students to have 3 to 5 levels of each subject in science, it doesn't mean that medical students didn't have to take the same A&P 1 & 2, or General Chem and Bio Chem that nursing students or biology students had too. Even Pre-med students have to start at general chem and work up to the advanced chem and bio classes. Don't get it twisted.

    Somebody should count the number of science courses (both basic and advanced) that Pre- medical students and nursing students have to take and then see how much the difference is. How many more science/ math courses do pre-med students take than nursing students (BSN prepared Nursing students of course) ?
    I have been a nursing instructor at several colleges and universities. The science classes that are required by nursing students to take are not the same science classes that scienc/pre med majors take. To suggest that nursing students are required to take the real science classes is false and laughable.

    For nursing you take a survey of HA&P with labs. This is not the HA&P that bio students take. Nursing A&P is a survey class that is set up for students who are taking a vocational degree (i.e. nursing, respiratory care, etc). Science and pre-med students take HA&P after taking general bio with labs. Same with chemistry classes. Nursing requires a year of chemistry that is a brief survey of general and organic chemistry. Science and pre-med students must take general chemistry (which requires Cal as a pre-req.) and then organic chemistry with labs.
    While their are nursing students who come into nursing after completing a college degree (including a "hard" science degree-biology, chemistry, physics,etc), the majority of nursing students come ill prepared to study survey versions of hard science classes.

    As a university instructor, who must try to "train" the students who enter nursing programs, I can tell you that nursing does not attract academically oriented students.

    The majority have significant academic issues including poor writing skills, poor math skills, inability to synthesize information, etc. The nursing students of today are not the students of 20 or 30 years ago. Why the quality of nursing students is deteriorating is complex.

    Additionally, the second degree nurses or career changing nurses are not the scholars that you may think. Yes they have a college degree (usually in a very light subject like sociology, liberal arts,marketing, art history etc). They could not make it (or make a living) in their original field and have heard romantic stories about nursing.

    While some of these second degree may have taken hard science classes or even have a science degree, they have other issues that prevented then from suceeding in the job market. Employers (hospitals) by the way are leary of the second degree nurse as it is assumed they could not "make it" the first time and are the most out of touch about what nursing is about.

    I have taught these students and can say they are overall better than the general nursing student but they do not understand the concept of being a "foot solider" or a "worker bee". They are so wrapped up in the perceived opportunities in nursing. It is sad, as now the opportunities are minimal and as new graduates they are having a real hard time even getting entry level positions.

    If nursing is going to be a more attractive field it must seriously deal with these issues-poor caliber students entering nursing. It is sad to see a graduate level nursing students who can not write cohesively.

    Nursing schools must enforce real admission standards at the entry level and at the graduate level. Nursing is one of the few soft areas that does not require a GRE to get into a master program. The schools dropped the GRE to open the door to more students (remember each student is tution money).

    I can vividly remember in a facility meeting participating in a discussion with my fellow instructors about how can admissions staff let some of these students in the door of the school.

    As our department head said, our paycheck come from these students tution money. We are told do what you can to compensate. As an instructor, I have been told we are training beside nurses not societial leaders. Our job is to given the students the basic skills to function at the entry level with their fuure employers being the one to refine them to the workplace. This was not the situation 20 or 30 years ago.

    As an aside, data shows that second degree students are no happier ( or successful) in their nursing career as they were in the first career. Past performance is an indicator ability, appitude and emotional intelligence.
    CCL RN and Guinea like this.
  12. Visit  netglow profile page
    1
    DNS, do you have a solid measure of your worth? I mean to prove that you really have what it takes. Or, is it just nursing school instruction for you. Has anyone counted on you when the chips are down - lay all responsibility on you and bet millions on the knowledge that you will succeed? No. I can't see you ever having that kind of responsibility. I have. Both millions and now lives.

    I have had a very successful first degree and career of 20+ years, climbing the ladder to owning my own very successful business having clients in big healthcare R&D, aviation, and finance, soley secured and sustained.

    I'll have you know that my research papers are used as the gold standard by two of my professors. More of my research will be published in a book written by yet another professor.

    I think you would be intimidated if I were a student at your college, and, I would be keenly aware that I intimidate you. But, alas people like me hold more cards than you think.
    PatMac10,RN likes this.
  13. Visit  PatMac10,RN profile page
    1
    Quote from DNS on the go
    I have been a nursing instructor at several colleges and universities. The science classes that are required by nursing students to take are not the same science classes that scienc/pre med majors take. To suggest that nursing students are required to take the real science classes is false and laughable.

    For nursing you take a survey of HA&P with labs. This is not the HA&P that bio students take. Nursing A&P is a survey class that is set up for students who are taking a vocational degree (i.e. nursing, respiratory care, etc). Science and pre-med students take HA&P after taking general bio with labs. Same with chemistry classes. Nursing requires a year of chemistry that is a brief survey of general and organic chemistry. Science and pre-med students must take general chemistry (which requires Cal as a pre-req.) and then organic chemistry with labs.
    While their are nursing students who come into nursing after completing a college degree (including a "hard" science degree-biology, chemistry, physics,etc), the majority of nursing students come ill prepared to study survey versions of hard science classes.

    As a university instructor, who must try to "train" the students who enter nursing programs, I can tell you that nursing does not attract academically oriented students.

    The majority have significant academic issues including poor writing skills, poor math skills, inability to synthesize information, etc. The nursing students of today are not the students of 20 or 30 years ago. Why the quality of nursing students is deteriorating is complex.

    Additionally, the second degree nurses or career changing nurses are not the scholars that you may think. Yes they have a college degree (usually in a very light subject like sociology, liberal arts,marketing, art history etc). They could not make it (or make a living) in their original field and have heard romantic stories about nursing.

    While some of these second degree may have taken hard science classes or even have a science degree, they have other issues that prevented then from suceeding in the job market. Employers (hospitals) by the way are leary of the second degree nurse as it is assumed they could not "make it" the first time and are the most out of touch about what nursing is about.

    I have taught these students and can say they are overall better than the general nursing student but they do not understand the concept of being a "foot solider" or a "worker bee". They are so wrapped up in the perceived opportunities in nursing. It is sad, as now the opportunities are minimal and as new graduates they are having a real hard time even getting entry level positions.

    If nursing is going to be a more attractive field it must seriously deal with these issues-poor caliber students entering nursing. It is sad to see a graduate level nursing students who can not write cohesively.

    Nursing schools must enforce real admission standards at the entry level and at the graduate level. Nursing is one of the few soft areas that does not require a GRE to get into a master program. The schools dropped the GRE to open the door to more students (remember each student is tution money).

    I can vividly remember in a facility meeting participating in a discussion with my fellow instructors about how can admissions staff let some of these students in the door of the school.

    As our department head said, our paycheck come from these students tution money. We are told do what you can to compensate. As an instructor, I have been told we are training beside nurses not societial leaders. Our job is to given the students the basic skills to function at the entry level with their fuure employers being the one to refine them to the workplace. This was not the situation 20 or 30 years ago.

    As an aside, data shows that second degree students are no happier ( or successful) in their nursing career as they were in the first career. Past performance is an indicator ability, appitude and emotional intelligence.
    Well, that may very well be true where you live, but I honestly have never seen or heard of such a preposterous thing (Now that's something to laugh at) here in NC, not saying it doesn't exist. IF there are schools around here doing it, somebody better tell these poor people that are getting University transfer degrees at CCs, for various reasons, that there Bios and Maths won't be accepted if they transfer and decide to do pre-med.

    Funny how when I was enrolled in summer college courses at a local public University pre-college program (both at a CC and a University) that a Pre-med student was enrolled in the same class. I looked up the requirements for pre-med and nursing in my area and none of the curriculum mention anything about their being two different types of one science class, one for those majoring and nursing and the other pre-med. Science is science no matter what your major is. I do agree that some of those who switch to nursing as second degree may not always be any happier. The point I am trying to clarify, is that in my part of NC, there is no such thing as science classes just for pre-med and science classes just for nursing majors.

    Now at MY CC you can take Survey of Mathematics to get an AA in General Ed, but to pursue a BSN at most of the Universities around here you need to take Statistics, College Algebra, 3 levels of Chem, and some histories (which I have the histories because of dual enrollment during high school ). I am a current pre-nursing student and I don't take survey of A&P anything. I take straight up A&P I then A&P II and straight up Microbiology. All of these would transfer to any university in NC and many online program that I've researched, whether I kept my major as nursing or pre-med. I know some pre-med programs are required to take III and IV levels or more of A&P, but as far as the I and II level courses, that I and many other pre-nursing students have/ are taking, they are the same courses I would have taken at a UNC school for a BSN or pre-med degree. But, like I stated earlier, I am aware that most pre-med students, if not all, take way more science courses than a nursing major ever will, but the science that they do take, that are required for nursing as well, are the same and they are taught on the same level.

    Oh and I never implied that I think that second degree nurses are "scholars", or at least I didn't mean to if I did. Any field, even medicine, can attract people who have poor writing or communication ability and some of the other things you listed, that why Medicine is a SCIENCE dominated field, so those people don't have to deal, as much, with the liberal arts and humanities. Anyone can be intelligent and challenge themselves regardless of what degree, major, or job title they have or are trying to pursue. I agree that many people are as dedicated to their field of study or work as they used to be, in part because the economy pushes people into the healthcare field as a "secure" field. And I only know of few APN programs that don't Require the GRE or the MAT, both test have been reported academically challenging on some level, or they wouldn't use them. It seems that the MAT is more difficult for people who are more science oriented and the GRE more difficult for those who are more liberal studies oriented.
    Last edit by PatMac10,RN on Feb 5, '11
    BluegrassRN likes this.
  14. Visit  BrookeeLou_RN profile page
    3
    Dear Nursing instructor,
    You seem so disgusted with the quality of students going into nursing, be it first time or as 2nd degree, why would you lower yourself to even consider instructing such students? How did you survive to get to the level of instructor? Are you a tenured Professor at an elite University?

    I am amazed at the tone of your post.
    I feel it is obvious on this site that many posters feel the "Conspiracy" of the nursing shortage could account for some students wanting to become nurses and not always having the grades to back it up..But back in the day when I went to college, those nurses were weeded out through the programs and if all else failed through the State Boards. And sometimes even those who struggled at first, did get with the program and succeeded to graduate and pass NCLEX and went on to be fine nurses!
    I believe no one is born knowing it all!! Thank Goodness or there would be no need for instructors!
    Faith213, netglow, and PatMac10,RN like this.


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