Is healthcare a right or privilege?

[Treat et Street]

If it is a right, then we have some work to do. If a privelidge, you get what you can pay for, right? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[MarvinMartian]

The problem is the phrase "healthy adult".

I have not been admitted to the hospital in over 12 years. I have never been pregnant, I have never had an STD, I do not smoke. I have a cocktail maybe once per month. I get vaccinated. I am rarely seriously ill.

I was treated for colon cancer in my late teens. I have had two breast biopsies positive for atypical hyperplasia. My mother and her sisters (all of them) have lost one or both breasts to cancer. None of them have died of the disease - none needed chemo or rad. They are 70s, 8os, 90, and 92. They still drive and live independantly.

I have ulcerative colitis, and have NEVER been hospitalized for it. Last flareup was 13 years ago. I take my remission meds, I watch my diet, get plenty of rest and avoid conditions that contribute to flares of the disease. It isn't easy but I do it.

Last time that I was unemployed, I checked into private insurance. No one will cover, the things that I most need covered. I actually have had people ask me why I am not classed as disabled (because I am not?). I was pretty much told that I was uninsurable. Of course was quite a while back, but still.

What insurance class as a "healthy" adult, is frequently less healthy than I am. But they don't have my history.

That is something that I disagree with. Pre-existing conditions shouldn't bar someone from getting for insurance. Of course... If we do that insurance companies would go broke as that is how insurance works. The company gambles on the fact that it doesn't have to spend as much as it earns. If it did it would have to significantly raise rates on people which no one would be able to afford.

Though I do believe people that resign and/or are laid off that have been paying into a health plan should be allowed to either remain in that plan (but continue to pay) or the insurance company should be required to roll them over into a private plan that includes the same price and benefits. If they could cover you under a group plan they should be able to cover you under a private plan.

[tewdles, RN]

Most people that I know do not want the "same plan" when they lose employment...they typically want something much less expensive when they have to carry all of the premium. That decrease in policy is not allowed under current COBRA laws.

[StNeotser, ASN, RN]

I find it rather disgusting that the richest nation in the world (for the next five years or so) think it's OK that the lowest twenty to thirty percent income bracket is dispensable.

These are your fellow citizens.

Is every other first world nation in the world wrong, or are you?

[MarvinMartian]

I find it rather disgusting that the richest nation in the world (for the next five years or so) think it's OK that the lowest twenty to thirty percent income bracket is dispensable.

These are your fellow citizens.

Is every other first world nation in the world wrong, or are you?

Who said it's a matter of right or wrong.

Simplified explanations are invariably wrong but I'm sure you already know that.

I think everyone is dispensable not just the lowest 20-30%.

Sure everyone likes to play the hero but when the hard times come even you will circle the wagons around your family and put yourself and yours first. To say different is false. Some of us just do it all the time.

[StNeotser, ASN, RN]

I think everyone is dispensable not just the lowest 20-30%.

.

Of course I hold my daughter more dear than everyone elses. But in a supposed civilized society I shouldn't have to chose between whether she or someone elses daughter gets treatment. That's the difference between civilization and the caveman.

[MarvinMartian]

Of course I hold my daughter more dear than everyone elses. But in a supposed civilized society I shouldn't have to chose between whether she or someone elses daughter gets treatment. That's the difference between civilization and the caveman.

We saw plenty of Americans choosing family over others during Katrina... It's the nature of the world and has nothing to do with 'grotesque' childhoods. We sure are seeing it in Haiti. We saw the Oakland cop shoot that boy and it was ok because he was a drug dealer. We see the bodies of children in Iraq but it's ok because that bomb was meant for the terrorist.

Is it not grotesque to drive by the bum and not look his way? Is it grotesque when, even here on this forum, so called compassionate humans denigrate those that suffer addictions? Is it grotesque when people argue about the good that comes about from sucking the brains out of a fetus because it's the mothers right? Is it grotesque when children dump their parents in nursing homes and see them once a year? Heck, there are threads ridiculing patients and coworkers that are considered annoying. Is that not grotesque? Don't even get me started on the threads where they label other nurses Ms. Bipolar and whatnot.

But expecting the poor to take responsibility makes me a horrible person. :lol2:

[StNeotser, ASN, RN]

But expecting the poor to take responsibility makes me a horrible person. :lol2:

Because the cost of that $1 "happy meal" means the person who is serving it to you goes without health insurance and you know it. That wonderful dollar menu means that hundreds of thousands go without health insurance. For what? So you and other "privlleged" people can get a higher cholesterol number when you go for your next annual?

You can bleat all you want about "well they should have gone to college"

But why should someone work a forty hour week and go without a basic human right?

[MarvinMartian]

Because the cost of that $1 "happy meal" means the person who is serving it to you goes without health insurance and you know it. That wonderful dollar menu means that hundreds of thousands go without health insurance. For what? So you and other "privlleged" people can get a higher cholesterol number when you go for your next annual?

You can bleat all you want about "well they should have gone to college"

But why should someone work a forty hour week and go without a basic human right?

A: Don't attack me. My child hood was great. Had a drop out run away mother that CHOSE to bust her butt. Had a father from the ghetto that CHOSE to bust his butt. No excuses...

B: They CHOOSE to work at McDonald's. They COULD have chosen schooling. They COULD choose a second or third job.

C: It's not a BASIC right. If it is then I am sure you'll volunteer to send all your cash ensuring that right to the billions in the world without healthcare? No? Didn't think so.

D: I'm not priviliged. I bust my butt. I work darn hard. I've NEVER begged for free stuff even when broke. I spent years eating Ramen noodles and dollar hot dog packs. I chose not to have children I couldn't afford at the time. I've been homeless. I joined the military. I built myself up. I'm not priviliged. I'm just smart.

Enough said...

[tewdles, RN]

indeed, way way more than enough said...

[StNeotser, ASN, RN]

I see you've updated your post. :)

So you served in the military - I have great respect for that.

In fact the only thing I don't have great respect for at all is that you see poor people as "dispensable" as well as other people.

I don't think a lot of the things in your post are "OK" They're not.

And healthcare is a basic human right in every other industrialized nation but this one. Don't think you and your fellow citizens don't deserve it. They do.

I've seen cases of people doing absolutely everything right and then getting screwed by it. The first example I saw was even before I became a nurse and had an elderly couple renting an apartment adjacent to the one me and my husband were renting before we decided to buy a house. They got all their money stolen legally by a health insurance company because the wife had the audacity to be sick and the insurance company used a legal loophole to not pay thousands of dollars. That frankly, should disgust anyone with a conscience.

[Silverdragon102, BSN]

ok guys can i remind you of terms of service

debates

we promote the idea of lively debate. this means you are free to disagree with anyone on any type of subject matter as long as your criticism is constructive and polite.

personal attacks

our first priority is to the members that have come here because of the flame-free atmosphere we provide. there is a zero-tolerance policy here against personal attacks. we will not tolerate anyone insulting another individual's opinion nor name calling and will ban repeat offenders.

[MarvinMartian]

I see you've updated your post. :)

So you served in the military - I have great respect for that.

In fact the only thing I don't have great respect for at all is that you see poor people as "dispensable" as well as other people.

I don't think a lot of the things in your post are "OK" They're not.

Quite simply a moral judgment that you can't really win. It might not be a right for you but that does not make it a universal constant.

And healthcare is a basic human right in every other industrialized nation but this one. Don't think you and your fellow citizens don't deserve it. They do.

Industrialized is a loaded term with no real definition. Avoid wikipedia.

Out of 195 countries 32 have universal healthcare. Hardly a quorum.

I've seen cases of people doing absolutely everything right and then getting screwed by it. The first example I saw was even before I became a nurse and had an elderly couple renting an apartment adjacent to the one me and my husband were renting before we decided to buy a house. They got all their money stolen legally by a health insurance company because the wife had the audacity to be sick and the insurance company used a legal loophole to not pay thousands of dollars. That frankly, should disgust anyone with a conscience.

I said healthcare isn't a right. I never said fraud (even legal fraud) was ok. You are mixing your arguments or misunderstanding mine.

I never said I am against healthcare reform. I am against universal, state run healthcare AND if we do have it I don't want to pay for non-contributing people.

I also don't include children, elderly or people with permanently disabling issues like the mentally ill, and other disabled people in the non-contributing group. Though I have already said that.

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

• Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
  
• Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
  
• Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
  
• The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
  
• Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
  
• Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
  
• Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
  
• Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
  

Does that strike you as needing help???

I have the feeling many people here don't know what poor really means and who really needs help...

40 hours a week at minimum wage with no insurance is 'American Poor.' It's not real poor. Real poor is Haiti... American poor is well off in most places in this world.