Healthcare is NOT a basic human right.

Nurses Activism

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If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from transgressions on part of the government. A right is something that is inherent to the individual, comes from that individual, and is maintained by the individual. You are born with such rights like the right to speak freely, the only thing that can be done to that right is to have it infringed. No one can grant a right to another, only limit or impede the exercise of that right.

Healthcare is a human invention that does not exist in the natural environment. Only through the work of others and through the taking of resources from one party and giving to another does healthcare exist. You cannot force someone to give effort and resources to another and call that a right. In the absence of human intervention the individual would live their lives and succumb to the natural forces which would act upon their bodies.

Do I think we should provide preventative care and basic primary care? Sure. Do I think that we can? Maybe. Do I think that healthcare is a basic human right? Absolutely not.

Ok. Let me say this.....I need insurance and I believe I have the right to have it! If members of congress have the right to all that great health insurance they get, than why shouldn't I have that same right? Are they better than me?
I can understand everyone wanting healthcare and I can even understand them wanting it without having to pay for it. However, I believe in personal responsiblility and believe that one of my inalienable rights is to get through this life (as an American), without the dependancy of government entitlements. Please do not misconstrue entitlements with infrastucture and protection from foreign and domestic enemies along with other duties of of the FED. I am not trying to be hard-nosed however I do want to continue the liberties that have been sought after and fought for by Americans. As far as ACA being signed, sealed, and delivered, because it went to the supreme court- first it was a split decision with the deciding factor being chosen by the senior. In addition, I am not opposed to Massechutes healthcare, in America the states are where that action is suppose to take place. If New York or any other individual state wishes to take on healthcare as a unit and their constituants agree, that would not frustrate me as much as a mandate in which the FED is infringing on my right to self responsibility. In regards to congress having insurance, as long as they are in office, I don't have a problem with it, however NOT lifetime. With that said I feel the same way about recipients (benefactors) of an entitlement voting themselves other people's income regardless if they are a citizen or a member of congress!! I wanted to get into the immigration but I now believe that is diverting too far from the issue I will save it for a different post. Liberty for all.

If we allow ACA to stand; the tax system will need to be overhauled and raised to where the bulk of my income is spent on taxes and then the government will dole out my allotments. I would be ok with a system where the people who would like to participate in it, either as a recipient or as a benefactor/recipient, were allowed to sign up for the deductions and then are eligible for the benefits. However, I believe those of us that are against it fundamentally should not be forced into accepting/using it. However, if that were to be allowed, the system would not have enough revenue, which is another reason I am against it. I don't know how to explain it, but I was raised to stand on your own two feet and to help your neighbor who can't. If the government is involved, it leaves everyone with such a small % of their income, to where there is not enough income remaining to give out of the kindness of your heart to those in need. I believe in Americans, I believe we will do the right thing; if left to our own choices. Just look at recent history and the outpouring of donations. How many people saw the female bus monitor being bullied? Americans rallied and she was rewarded with close to a million dollars within a couple of days!!! Katrina? Joplin? Oversea tragedies? We are a caring people but we do not want the government to dictate who, when, and how much with our individual income. Earlier in this post it was suggested that Americans had "a thread of independant pioneer blood still running thru their veins however the world has changed and in an URBAN society..." I wish to dispute this notion. First I do not live in an urban area (and that is specifically by choice) Yes there is more available and more assistance for all. I don't want either. Second, the United "States" of America are 50 unique individual states (In Europe a country is a state). That would be like all of Europe getting together and creating a healthcare for all of Europe. (How's the Euro's working for them?) Like I said in my earlier post if any municipality or state wishes to set something up for their people it is their decision. However, it is stepping way out of bounds for all 50 states to be required to surrender to the same set of statutes regardless of their circumstances.

I believe that personal responsiblity is the utmost security I can have. I will never feel secure leaving my healthcare to a government that has, in my opinion, failed basically all social programs they have tried to conquer. One last statement, Michelle Obama stated "I can finally be proud of America" in 2008. Now I am getting close to saying that "I am at risk of losing my pride in America, if Americans choose to give up their personal responsibility for the pseudo-security of government entitlements!"

Specializes in Emergency.
Ok, well for one, this conversation isnt about illegal immigration. Second, the fact that we were COLONISTS at one point, not illegal immigrants, is besides the point. There was no concept of citizenship among Native Americans, no concept of land ownership. And do you want to know how we define this crazy thing called illegal or legal citizens? Its simple. Either a birth certificate saying you were born here, or naturalization documents, or any legal document from USCIS saying you are legally allowed to be here and work. If you want to talk about how in this day and age we take care of others, you should also realize that in this day and age, you need to LEGALLY immigrate. Because while citizenship to a certain land might be a social construct, so is healthcare for all.

As for the slaughter of Natives. Yes, there was slaughter. It went both ways. But how many conquering people do you know who give the conquered land, benefits, tax exemptions, and apologize every chance they get?

And to your hilarious comment about how we would test to see who is a real American or not, or who is allowed to be here, please refer to my above explanations. If you are a citizen, or have a work visa, or are a permanent resident, then you dont have to leave. Simple.

Are you "really" saying that the system we have in place...reservations..is such a great thing? Are you really saying that? If so, you need to take a long look at what you are supporting before you tout it as a nice thing with apologies etc...I imagine you think "apologizing every chance we get" just allows for the selective forgetting of what this country was truly founded on...again people love to selectively forget that the basic foundations are in fact corrupt. And yes...these "ideals" like health care and citizenship are "constructs"- that is the point... humans are dynamic -as well as the world/the planet..can we not see beyond our increasingly close minded and pre-conventional thought? Basing your argument...as you try to debunk mine...on whether or not the teacher is out of the room has little if any backbone...it is time to look beyond. I support many of the people throughout this post that have been other places besides the US..they at least have some vision.

Specializes in Emergency.
This is to 37 degrees -

No it is not irrelevant, whether you are or in your case NOT a nurse. This is a site and a thread for NURSES. You are clearly not one.

Did anyone else just hear that? It was 37 degrees' credibility going down the drain....

We deal with the sick, the injured, the young, the dieing, 24/7... What do you do? Haunt internet chat boards attempting to prove something which has already been debunked time and time again? All in the name of "research"?

Take your propaganda somewhere else comrade. It's not welcome here in the land of the free, and home of the brave!

Wow...are you sure..like the deportation argument...since CNA's and PCT's and EMT's etc...etc...are not "Nurses" should they be told to leave this forum? And gosh...are you really invoking "the red scare"...if you stopped watching Fox or glen beck you might feel a little better...

Specializes in Emergency.
To compare the immigration issue to southern supremacy and slavery is silly and insulting. You are attempting to skew the debate by throwing out terms that will slander anyone who attempts to debate you.

Please use logic, not pejorative terms.

Simple logic: These "ideas"/ laws were introduced, people left, nobody is doing the work, the people that supported the idea are now in trouble because they now have nobody to do the work...simple flow chart. The comparison to southern slavery is not "far out" the reason the "job creators" are in such trouble is that they realize that most human beings in their right mind (legal citizens) will not do slave labor...unless they absolutely are desperate..like so many in this country forced to a lower tier based on hate wrapped up in a pretty bow called immigration law.That is the system they have set up as they exploit these workers. I've dug ditches and picked crops for under the abhorrent minimum wage, I've worked with these people in these conditions...have any of you?

Specializes in Emergency.
Right, and the whole argument that illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans wouldnt do. That is preposterous. Maybe they dont want to do them at the current salaries. But if you have no other options, you increase salary to minimum wage. And lets remember America is currently experiencing a recession with skyhigh unemployment rates. I think assuming that Americans wouldnt do the work is silly. First, we wont know until we try. Second, when you are desperate to feed your family and unemployed, you take what you can get (unless of course the government throws out a bunch of handouts so you dont have to work).

Would you do the work??? That is the question. It is not an "assumption" look around. Also..Of course raising the minimum wage would be a good thing to do. How? The people at the top want to keep this country in a state of indentured servantry. I have heard enough nurses on this site constantly complaining about workloads and pay and being overworked etc..etc...try working for under the minimum wage day in and day out and still not being able to support yopur family and then come back with your argument. I love the handout argument: Have you ever used financial aide for school? If so=handout. Ever used any tax deduction? If so=handout. This list is endless and using the handout card is really "hilarious."

Specializes in Dialysis.

Malamud69 this question is for you. I'm detecting you favor open borders for cheap vegetables and human dignity but how far are you willing to go? Should we limit H1B visas? Because if not there are a whole lot of trained nurses from other parts of the world who would love to do your job for half of what you are willing to do it.

Specializes in Emergency.
Malamud69 this question is for you. I'm detecting you favor open borders for cheap vegetables and human dignity but how far are you willing to go? Should we limit H1B visas? Because if not there are a whole lot of trained nurses from other parts of the world who would love to do your job for half of what you are willing to do it.

Dare I say..."missed the point???" Of course there are "a whole lot of trained nurses from other parts of the world who would love to do..." What is your point? And your statement about "open borders for cheap vegetables" really shows your misunderstanding...again we need more post conventional thought not pre...How about this to chew on...Most of the residents at the teaching hospital I work at are not US citizens...well over 90%...what do you get from that? I am curious how you may drum up a completely erroneous reply...

Specializes in Med-Surg.
And guess how much you're going to be paying for chicken. And vegetables. Sure, we can employee "Americans" to pick our fields, but since they work at about a 1/3 to 1/2 as fast as the guys that were doing it, We'll be paying that much more for our vegetables. Imagine how much beef is going to cost now that there are people reporting their accidents in the slaughterhouses to OSHA instead of quietly taking their now single-armed spanish speaking body home. Got to pay for a new arm if you can't threaten them with INS so they'll keep quiet and disappear.

It really is preposterous, and I have a solution. A Canadian could go back to where they came from and open up that nursing job for one of our many out of work nurses here. I'm sure they'd rather work instead of getting a bunch of government handouts. But as long as we allow foreign nurses into this country, we're stuck putting unemployed nurses on welfare and food stamps, and WIC and all sorts of government handouts. There's a border that I can get behind shutting down. Canadians aren't offering low cost labor like people from the southern border offer. So Canadians are ONLY taking away jobs that Americans do want to fill. Like the many nursing graduates and experienced nurses looking for work.

If only we could find one Canadian that took a nursing job in the U.S.A. That's one nursing job that could then be opened up to a true born in the good ol' U.S.ofA. Where to look? WHERE TO LOOK????

Well someone clearly has something against Canada. Not too sure why. But either way, I am here legally, on a work Visa. If USCIS saw fit to give it to me, and my American employers could not find an American nurse to hire at the same salary with the same qualifications I have, that is not my problem. Had I not had these papers and the job offer, I would have stayed in Canada, or went somewhere else where they would hire me. Sounds like someone needs to see a specialist to deal with this irrational anger against your neighbors to the North though.

Specializes in Med-Surg.

Wow, ok, this thread has officially been derailed by a few "Occupy" movement supporters. Guess its time to move on to a more informational topic...

Specializes in LTC Rehab Med/Surg.

What is a human right?

Human rights are commonly understood as "Inalienable fundamental rights to which a person is inherently entitled simply because he or she is a human being". I looked it up on wikipedia:up: when that question was posed by an earlier poster.

I don't think health care measures up to that standard.

Specializes in LTC Rehab Med/Surg.
Well someone clearly has something against Canada. Not too sure why. But either way, I am here legally, on a work Visa. If USCIS saw fit to give it to me, and my American employers could not find an American nurse to hire at the same salary with the same qualifications I have, that is not my problem. Had I not had these papers and the job offer, I would have stayed in Canada, or went somewhere else where they would hire me.

Sounds like someone needs to see a specialist to deal with this irrational anger against your neighbors to the North though.

I really hate it when someone suggests that responses are unbalanced/irrational/crazy, and psychiatric help is in order. In the interest of fair play I consider such statements as "low blows".

I'm off my soap box for the day.

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