PMHNP programs all going from MSN to DNP?

Goldenfox · Jan 1, 2016

All NP schools are gradually phasing out the master's degree or planning to do so eventually, not (in most cases) because of a mandate but because, strategically as well as financially, it makes sense for them to do so. It means keeping students in school much longer and collecting a whole lot more of that high (and ever-increasing) graduate tuition. Many of us choose not to do the DNP because we can. Future NP students will not have that choice. The master's degree programs are already no longer being offered by some universities.

Someone raised the issue of 'grandfathering' of existing NPs where the DNP is concerned. I'm not so sure that existing NPs won't be required to go back and do the DNP---even if it isn't a clinical degree and even if having it doesn't mean that you're going to get more pay. This is a political issue...the type that blows with the wind. I remember when nursing academia and the hospitals first began saying that they need to raise the minimum standard of nursing practice to the BSN, and I remember that the pushback from nurses was HUGE! Back then, most nurses had only associate degrees and a lot of them were adamantly refusing to go back to school. They insisted that the BSN as the new standard would never happen. But, it did. These days, many facilities will not hire an RN who doesn't have a BSN (or some other type of bachelor's degree), and I have seen that some employers are requiring that their current nursing staff go back to school and get the BSN within a certain time frame or risk losing their jobs. I also remember when employers used to pay maybe 50 cents or a dollar or so an hour more after you got your BSN degree---which wasn't too bad an incentive. But those days are long gone. Now they are expecting you to have the BSN when you apply for the job and they won't pay you one penny more just for having it. No matter how much nursing experience you have they still want that BSN, and if you haven't got it then there's a pretty good chance that somebody else will get that job that you're applying for. RN to BSN programs suddenly began to pop up all over the place, not because most ADN-RNs wanted to go back to school but because most HAD TO in order to be competitive in the job market.

The way I see it, the competition for NP jobs will eventually become such that employers will simply cherry pick from among those with the highest academic credentials. Some people say that this will never happen, but it's kinda like the 'BSN' thing all over again. It can happen. And it will. Eventually.

xenogenetic · Jan 1, 2016

All NP schools are gradually phasing out the master's degree or planning to do so eventually, not (in most cases) because of a mandate but because, strategically as well as financially, it makes sense for them to do so. It means keeping students in school much longer and collecting a whole lot more of that high (and ever-increasing) graduate tuition. Many of us choose not to do the DNP because we can. Future NP students will not have that choice. The master's degree programs are already no longer being offered by some universities.
Someone raised the issue of 'grandfathering' of existing NPs where the DNP is concerned. I'm not so sure that existing NPs won't be required to go back and do the DNP---even if it isn't a clinical degree and even if having it doesn't mean that you're going to get more pay. This is a political issue...the type that blows with the wind. I remember when nursing academia and the hospitals first began saying that they need to raise the minimum standard of nursing practice to the BSN, and I remember that the pushback from nurses was HUGE! Back then, most nurses had only associate degrees and a lot of them were adamantly refusing to go back to school. They insisted that the BSN as the new standard would never happen. But, it did. These days, many facilities will not hire an RN who doesn't have a BSN (or some other type of bachelor's degree), and I have seen that some employers are requiring that their current nursing staff go back to school and get the BSN within a certain time frame or risk losing their jobs. I also remember when employers used to pay maybe 50 cents or a dollar or so an hour more after you got your BSN degree---which wasn't too bad an incentive. But those days are long gone. Now they are expecting you to have the BSN when you apply for the job and they won't pay you one penny more just for having it. No matter how much nursing experience you have they still want that BSN, and if you haven't got it then there's a pretty good chance that somebody else will get that job that you're applying for. RN to BSN programs suddenly began to pop up all over the place, not because most ADN-RNs wanted to go back to school but because most HAD TO in order to be competitive in the job market.
The way I see it, the competition for NP jobs will eventually become such that employers will simply cherry pick from among those with the highest academic credentials. Some people say that this will never happen, but it's kinda like the 'BSN' thing all over again. It can happen. And it will. Eventually.

The director of my NP program told me that at this moment, the DNP demand is not there and that she knows of several schools that had tried going DNP only and had to offer the MSN again because they had DNP faculty that was commanding salaries but there was a lack of students. In fact, and sadly, the program switched gears and is marketing the MSN program to neighboring states (i.e. RI) as well as starting a PA program in 2016 instead of pouring resources trying to force the DNP program.

Goldenfox · Jan 2, 2016

The director of my NP program told me that at this moment, the DNP demand is not there and that she knows of several schools that had tried going DNP only and had to offer the MSN again because they had DNP faculty that was commanding salaries but there was a lack of students. In fact, and sadly, the program switched gears and is marketing the MSN program to neighboring states (i.e. RI) as well as starting a PA program in 2016 instead of pouring resources trying to force the DNP program.

You missed the irony of my post. Its not so much about existing demand, but about creating demand for NP education---which ultimately further diminishes the NP profession in terms of opportunities and pay. Think about it. With so many NP schools increasingly putting out new grads---many of whom are already having a tough time finding work---what does the future look like with a glut of grads who all have an MSN degree and no actual NP experience?

That future is already here. Don't just take my word for it. Look and ask around. Having a DNP may make a difference in some cases since it does (even if only in a small way) differentiate a candidate from an ocean of other applicants who all have the same master's degrees and no experience. If I were to truly describe it for what's really happening it might be too frightening and discouraging to some people, so let the reader use discernment.

I also believe that what your school is experiencing isn't so much a lack of DNP students but the beginning of an overall lack of NP students, period. Many are simply opting out of the DNP because they can. It was inevitable that this would happen with so many online NP schools popping up all over the place, there simply aren't enough students to spread out among all these schools. What I think will eventually happen is that more and more NP schools will begin to either offer fewer spots, or close altogether when it is no longer financially viable for them to keep the gig going. Fewer students will be enrolling in NP programs once they realize that the job market for new NPs is not as rosy as the ads make it seem.

Trauma Columnist · Jan 3, 2016

Moved to student NP forum

xenogenetic · Jan 4, 2016

You missed the irony of my post. Its not so much about existing demand, but about creating demand for NP education---which ultimately further diminishes the NP profession in terms of opportunities and pay. Think about it. With so many NP schools increasingly putting out new grads---many of whom are already having a tough time finding work---what does the future look like with a glut of grads who all have an MSN degree and no actual NP experience?
That future is already here. Don't just take my word for it. Look and ask around. Having a DNP may make a difference in some cases since it does (even if only in a small way) differentiate a candidate from an ocean of other applicants who all have the same master's degrees and no experience. If I were to truly describe it for what's really happening it might be too frightening and discouraging to some people, so let the reader use discernment.
I also believe that what your school is experiencing isn't so much a lack of DNP students but the beginning of an overall lack of NP students, period. Many are simply opting out of the DNP because they can. It was inevitable that this would happen with so many online NP schools popping up all over the place, there simply aren't enough students to spread out among all these schools. What I think will eventually happen is that more and more NP schools will begin to either offer fewer spots, or close altogether when it is no longer financially viable for them to keep the gig going. Fewer students will be enrolling in NP programs once they realize that the job market for new NPs is not as rosy as the ads make it seem.

Yes, you make an excellent point. Following in line with your point, the question comes up of which universities will be willing to take the financial hit to their program in the beginning to cause that bottleneck and force everyone down the DNP track? My school has 74 students enrolled in the psych NP program, and only 7 in the DNP program. I remember 10 years ago when they said LPNs would be extinct by today, yet walk into any nursing home and you will find them. ADN RNs were next on the soon to be extinct list, yet they are still around. I think economics will keep MSN programs around for at least another 20 years if the economics remain the same. The only large interventions that I can forsee with regards to stemming the current supply of MSN NPs is if states buckle down on creating minimum passing rates that would include holding for profit MSN programs to those standards. Then again, I am not knowledgeable in the area of if the for profits produce poorer performing board testing graduates.