bolus and GI bleed

Specialties MICU

Published

The other day I had a situation that really frustrated me. Patient was in our unit overnight until endoscopy the next day with massive amounts of frank blood in stool with a whole lot of clots too. We were transfusing blood all night and the patient was maxed on a vasopressor at times throughout the night when she would bottom out. Urine was adequate but Cr was rising. Patient had crackles occasionally, but in general, despite old age and cardiac history was tolerating the blood.

I felt like we should have bolused the patient and verbalized this vehemently many times. Even 250 ccs would be something. I dont see how using a vasopressor to starve the end organs to vainly attempt to hide the problem of hypotension by clamping down tubes that have no volume in them will help this patient.

I wanted to call the primary because I couldnt get through to the GI doc but the charge nurse was very aggressive and confrontational when I proposed a bolus, and in calling the primary.

I know Im new, but we've bolused patients with a lot more respiratory compromise than that because they really needed it. We've bolused anuric patients without an airway for christssake. This patient had neither renal failure or pulmonary edema at the time.

It was just so frustrating to me because it makes no sense to me to continue on course with a severely widened pulse pressure with critically low diastolic maxed out on levo without bolusing the patient. Especially when her bp was dropping to the 40-60s on levo! I just cant wait till I am an old timer and people wont completely disrespect me when I propose a solution and I can call the mds without charge nurse approval. It really gets me going to know this patient suffered all night (and her kidney's too) because the gi doc didnt want to do an endoscopy at night.

What would you have done in this situation. Do you think I should have also avoided the use of bolus based on the info I gave? Thanks for the advice in advance :)

Specializes in CVICU.
Look at it this way...you're already replacing the blood. The patient needed blood. Was there any maintenance fluid running? Bolusing the patient just dilutes it- it doesn't actually help carry oxygen where the patient needs it.

I'm studying for my progressive care certification- and they teach against bolusing a GI bleed patient because of this. the blood is fluid volume. You're replacing what is being lost.

Giving fluids WILL absolutely help oxygen delivery. You need adequate volume to have an adequate cardiac output. Of course they also need blood.

Specializes in CVICU.

I didn't know that it was ever appropriate to give lasix to a severely hypotensive patient? Was there an echo done or something that really made this doc think there was a cardiogenic aspect to this hypotension? It just doesn't make sense from a hemodynamic standpoint to me. I don't see how the doc ruled out low preload as the main issue here.

Specializes in Med/surg, rural CCU.
I didn't know that it was ever appropriate to give lasix to a severely hypotensive patient? Was there an echo done or something that really made this doc think there was a cardiogenic aspect to this hypotension? It just doesn't make sense from a hemodynamic standpoint to me. I don't see how the doc ruled out low preload as the main issue here.

This is my thought. I know giving fluids is generally good, but I think there's a piece of this picture missing. I have a hard time believing the doctor was just refusing to give fluids and giving lasix on a patient that was obviously hypovolemic. Something else was going on.

Specializes in Critical Care.

Just a couple of thoughts: while I don't know how practical it would be at your facility, if the pt was paced, cards could be called to increase the rate on the pacer temporairly to give more of an atrial kick..may have helped with urine output and kidney perfusion.

You said your pt only got 4 units of PRBC's..while I feel there is more information needed here as to the whole "give fluid issue" vs. pressor...without having a clear picture of how much blood she had lost, I'd agree more units would have been helpful. Also, when giving a bit of blood like that, consider giving some calcium chloride (if you have central access). Blood is preserved with citrate which can deplete calcium in the bloodstream...adding some calcium chloride can make the heart happier and can have a transient increase in BP which may buy you time while you are replacing volume.

I've dealt with quite a few GI bleeds and the crystalloid vs. blood issue is always a dicey topic and depends upon the attending you're dealing with. I agree, you can't squeeze a tank that ain't full but sometimes you can only do what you can do.

A side note in your original post I found especially troubling was the comment you made about the charge RN not "allowing" you to call the attending. That is something I would NOT tolerate. Listen, I'd be advocating strongly for having the policy revised. If I've got a pt issue, and I feel no one is responding appropriately..you better believe I"m waking up an attending. If something negatively had happened and you had to go to court, your charge didn't have a legal responsibility...you did. It could be your butt in the sling...so to speak. A policy that tries to keep me from advocating for my pt is gonna get revised in my book or I'm getting a new job. It's never easy calling an attending on the off shift (I work nights) and I'm gonna be honest...I've had to call a couple that are known to be difficult...I was shakin' in my shoes when I called. But the situation was becoming so dangerous, I felt I had no choice. They were actually very kind and receptive when I called and shared the situation...and I got the orders I needed. And the residents who were on and mismanaging the situation......they got a serious talking to. Don't ever let anyone stop you from advocating for your patients. Good luck to you.

Specializes in critical care, PACU.

the md prescribed the lasix only after my halfhearted report to the primary that the patient had crackles. I only called to report the crackles because the charge nurse was having a coniption about the crackles despite no respiratory distress, tachypnea, anything.

Before pharmacy sent it up the patient became increasingly hypotensive so I didnt give it for a quite a while until I got the bp back under control. This was another reason why I wanted to call the primary. I wanted to see if the doc really wanted to give lasix now that the patient was more hypotensive.

It was just an infuriating situation. This is the second time a crappy charge nurse has forbidden md communication when my license is on the line. My boss has full support of this practice of running it by the charge nurse too.

I dont know what to do to change this practice short of getting into a shouting match with the charge or directly disrespecting my superiors. I cant leave this job.

I feel like I am worse off than other new grads because I graduated at the age of 21. So people always judge me based on my youth. Yeah, Im young, but I also have the dedication and the smarts to graduate with a 4.00 from a very challenging accelerated BSN program despite having little support from my parents. I feel like I get absolutely no respect for the judgments I make, despite it being my patient. Being the low man on the totem pole sucks. I just wonder if I will ever climb the totem pole because of my age.

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