LPN as supervisor? - page 4

My question....I practice in the state of Massachusetts in a SNF. I have always been under the impression that an RN "outranks" an LPN and therefore an LPN cannot supervise an RN. Does anyone know... Read More

  1. by   BBFRN
    Really? Then why have all of your previous FNP2B posts disappeared? (Most of which were pretty nasty to LPNs, BTW). Luckily, some people quoted you in other threads- those are still available for viewing.
  2. by   RN,BSN,MSN
    Quote from lgflamini
    really? then why have all of your previous fnp2b posts disappeared? (most of which were pretty nasty to lpns, btw). luckily, some people quoted you in other threads- those are still available for viewing.
    sorry if any of my post offended you......just my opinon on certain issues.


    remember....."its never to late to be what you might have been"
  3. by   Jailhouse RN
    An RN is ultimately responsible in ALL cases. You will find out when something goes wrong and the case goes to court.
  4. by   Destinystar
    to igflamini- if it is true that this person is using this site to degrade lpn's and supplying false or misleading information then report it to a moderator. people that come on these sites with the intention of targeting and attacking people should be reported. if this person is not conducting themself in a mature manner just report it. in my opinion people with low self esteems dont feel good unless they are degrading someone else. i have been a cna, lvn, rn, rn-bs. i have found that when supervisors degrade their staff it has a negative impact on the patients well being, degraded, insulted subordinates are more likely to abuse their patients out of frustration than staff who are treated in a respectfull manner. "a man never looks so big as he does when he is bending over to help a child".
    Quote from lgflamini
    really? then why have all of your previous fnp2b posts disappeared? (most of which were pretty nasty to lpns, btw). luckily, some people quoted you in other threads- those are still available for viewing.
  5. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from Jailhouse RN
    An RN is ultimately responsible in ALL cases. You will find out when something goes wrong and the case goes to court.
    Unless the LPN and RN work for a doctor. Then each is responsible to the doctor individually and one to the other is just another employee, neither responsible for anything the other does. You will only see this situation in a Docs office or small LTC facility where the Doc acts as the top of the hierarchy for pt care, this is very rare but I do know a nurse who until recently worked in such a home. They only had like 18 beds I think it was, a DOC owned it and lived pretty much on site. He had a couple of CNAs and a nurse on each shift. That was it. His wife and the household staff took care of dietary and housekeeping. She worked there for quite a while so I would assume all was legal or he would have gone broke. I don't live in that part of the country anymore and my friend has retired and moved to Arizona so I can't even ask her if everything is going on as usual.

    There are so many ways to interpret the Nurse Practice Act. Of course you can get too loose and be wrong but you can get to strict and be wrong again. Most facilities would rather err on the side of too strict. Safer that way!

    There are many more opportunities for the RN but for an LPN, there's plenty of choices too and not all are at the bedside. There should be no reason for us to argue amongst ourselves but I can see how it happens. Too many RNs on this board come in with a gung ho attitude that states "you are a little play nurse, you should go to school longer if you are smart enough and be a real nurse; until then, you coundn't possible know as much as I do about anything clinical and so I will dog on you at every opportunity."

    I've noticed that the above comes from a minority of nurses here but they do seem to have to most to say.

    Bottom line is for each incidence of what an LPN can not do, there is an LPN somewhere that has done it and another that does it every day. Legally and that makes it a pretty darn stupid thing to argue about.

    If you seriously know anything about nursing education of the LPN you would know that the few tasks we are not permitted to perform in most states is only to give that state a dividing line between LPN and RN. (Notice I said tasks, like sticking a blood bag or hanging TPN) All LPNs should know the how, when, why, who of these treatments to pass NCLEX. So spiking the bag is really just a dividing line, not something too complex for the LPN to understand.

    So, stop arguing. It just proves no point.
  6. by   mscsrjhm
    Quote from Jailhouse RN
    An RN is ultimately responsible in ALL cases. You will find out when something goes wrong and the case goes to court.


    Not true. More legal misunderstanding
  7. by   RN,BSN,MSN
    Quote from capecodmermaid
    my question....i practice in the state of massachusetts in a snf. i have always been under the impression that an rn "outranks" an lpn and therefore an lpn cannot supervise an rn. does anyone know where i can find the regs? i tried the state website and this issue wasn't addressed. (and please, don't think i care what initials are after someone's name. i've worked with some outstanding lpn's)
    we need not forget the op..... imho rn's do not "outrank" lpn/lvn. an rn cannot hire or fire an lpn/lvn. just as an md in a hospital setting does not hire or fire rn's. md's however have more education than rn's and so is it that rn's have more education than lvn's. every state has different rules and regs when it comes to administrative authority. i cannot imagine an lpn/lvn supervising a unit full of rn's. but i have been wrong before. i would check your local nurse practice act.

    remember...."its never to late to be what you might have been"
  8. by   BBFRN
    Quote from destinystar
    to igflamini- if it is true that this person is using this site to degrade lpn's and supplying false or misleading information then report it to a moderator.
    one step ahead of you there...but thanks.
  9. by   Quickbeam
    Personal experience here. I'm an RN/BSN. I applied for an occupational health nurse job at a manufacturing plant. It is a well known company in my state and I love industrial nursing. I went through 4 interviews and was offered a job. At the time of offer I was introduced to the woman who would be my supervisor (we'd be a department of 2....her as the supervisor and me as her supervisee). She was an LPN. I inquired as to how this would work and I was told she'd be my boss, evaluate me, etc.

    I turned the job down because I didn't see how that arrangement could work legally. I went to my BON and they said I'd be accountable for oversight of the LPN's work whether or not it was part of my job. We'd be on different shifts so I couldn't see how this could ever work out. I was extremely uncomfortable with the liability issues. I think it is a very awkward situation.
  10. by   purplemania
    our Nurse practice act clearly states that an LVN (LPN) cannot delegate to an RN. Perhaps, since you are not in an acute care facility, there is some difference, but I would call or write the BON to be sure. I, too, have worked with some outstanding LVN's, but talent and the law are not the same thing.
  11. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from Quickbeam
    Personal experience here. I'm an RN/BSN. I applied for an occupational health nurse job at a manufacturing plant. It is a well known company in my state and I love industrial nursing. I went through 4 interviews and was offered a job. At the time of offer I was introduced to the woman who would be my supervisor (we'd be a department of 2....her as the supervisor and me as her supervisee). She was an LPN. I inquired as to how this would work and I was told she'd be my boss, evaluate me, etc.

    I turned the job down because I didn't see how that arrangement could work legally. I went to my BON and they said I'd be accountable for oversight of the LPN's work whether or not it was part of my job. We'd be on different shifts so I couldn't see how this could ever work out. I was extremely uncomfortable with the liability issues. I think it is a very awkward situation.
    I wouldn't think the LPN would be your clinical supervisor since she would not even be there on the same shift. It would be more of an administrative position. She is familiar with the companies paperwork, scheduling, etc. An RN can be hired for a job and a person who isn't a nurse at all can be the supervisor. There's a huge difference between clinical supervision and administrative supervision. And, since you do not work the same shift, how could you be liable for the LPNs clinical behavior? Not possible in that situation.
  12. by   Quickbeam
    In reply: I was told she (the LPN) would be my clinical supervisor. In fact, I was told she'd be my supervisor in all aspects of work. I'm not saying someone couldn't have worked under those circumstances but I felt it was enough of a liability issue as to make me turn the job down. And the response I got from my BON indicated I'd be very vulnerable to exposure.

    My experience, on the thread topic. That's all.
  13. by   RN,BSN,MSN
    Quote from quickbeam
    personal experience here. i'm an rn/bsn. i applied for an occupational health nurse job at a manufacturing plant. it is a well known company in my state and i love industrial nursing. i went through 4 interviews and was offered a job. at the time of offer i was introduced to the woman who would be my supervisor (we'd be a department of 2....her as the supervisor and me as her supervisee). she was an lpn. i inquired as to how this would work and i was told she'd be my boss, evaluate me, etc.

    i turned the job down because i didn't see how that arrangement could work legally. i went to my bon and they said i'd be accountable for oversight of the lpn's work whether or not it was part of my job. we'd be on different shifts so i couldn't see how this could ever work out. i was extremely uncomfortable with the liability issues. i think it is a very awkward situation.
    i think you did the right thing quickbeam. the best thing to do in unusual situations like that is to immediately go to your bon and they will give you the red or green light (which they did... and i see it was a very bright red light). by the way you definitely will not have a problem finding another job. this world is always looking for a few good rn's. also, you probably won't run into that problem again.

    goodluck

    remember everyone......."its never to late to be what you might have been"
    Last edit by RN,BSN,MSN on Jun 28, '04

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