This vent is not directed toward this list... I usually just lurk here... but on other lists and in practice I am constantly hearing how I (as a BSN student) am inferior to LPN's and ADN's. I swear to goodness... I am past sick and tired of being made to feel like my BSN education is worthless. I don't know where this idea of little or no clinical experience comes in... but for some reason people feel like the over 300 hours of clinicals I put in this past 9 months is not worth anything.
I try to have total respect for the experienced nurse (at all levels) and ALL nursing students. I am busting my butt to try to become the best nurse I can be.
My colleages have experienced this as well... Are any of you BSN students experiencing the same thing and how are you handling it.
I just don't know how to handle this with any grace. I am becoming bitter very quickly! LOL
Thanks for listening!
When it's full empty it, when it's empty fill it, when it itches scratch it.
May 24, '02
I have a BS in another area but am going for an associate then will work toward BS in nursing because I have most general education it shouldn't be difficult. I don't think BS take less clinicals probably more here in Indiana. But BS do take more general ed. which leads to management stuff. It also makes the colleges alot of money. I think things vary from state to State. I'm disapointed that BS apparently don't make more money than AS ( according to what I've read on this site)
May 24, '02
hey, I am trying to get my BSN after my ADN!! I want to be a PA when I finish with school(hopefully sometime before I'm 90!)
May 24, '02
Don't hit me!....I'm an ADN! I hear you though. As you see, we are from the same state, and I have to say, I have seen my fair share of questionable behaivor from the BSN students (but I've seen the same in ADN students)! No matter your program, some people have it, and some don't!
The comments I get when I tell other nurses that I will start my RN-BSN in Sep..."Why do that? It's just a waste of time. It's not required." That to me, is a bigger insult on your degree!! I wanted the ADN simply so I could get out, and get working quicker, with RN pay. The sky's the limit though!!!
You go! Don't let the comments get ya! You'll be glad you did in the end!
May 24, '02
First off, I am an LPN of 22 years and very proud of it. I just want to say you have idiots on all levels of education. In the profession we have chosen, I do not believe we can be too educated BUT everyone needs to be tolerant of each nurses abilities and respect their status, whether LPN or RN to the highest level. Many LPN's would further their degrees if their life circumstances permitted it but that does not make them bad nurses. I have seen ignorance on all levels because book learning does not automatically make you a good nurse. Being a good nurse is taking your education level, improving it at every oppurnunity and respecting your patients and co-workers alike. It means having common sense, a compassionate heart and understanding that we all make mistakes and are human. It means lifting your co-workers up on a down day, giving extra tolerance to new nurses, no matter what their title is and reaching out to help a co-worker that is overwhelmed and needs confidence in their ability. I get so angry at nurses that say they hate to train new nurses, then boo hoo because they quite when they feel stupid and not appreciated. Having a heart and reaching out to train these new nurses is what makes better nurses and it makes us better nurses for sharing the benefit of what we know and learning from them the new ideas being taught in schools
now. I'm an old timer and am always willing to look at a new and improved way of doing things. Times change, things improve. We must not only open our minds but our hearts. Either that or stop whining when we're over worked and under staffed. We can make a difference in staffing if we open our hearts to the newcomers and make them feel like we really appreciate them. I could go on and on about this subject for it is one I feel strongly about but I'll just leave it with what I have said. Be proud of your education and respect others for theirs and you will do fine. God Bless you!!!!
May 25, '02
I couldn't have said it any better!
May 26, '02
i'm an adn and i boycott the bsn...here's why..so far i am not interested in any career path that requires a bsn. my intentions are to stay in the er as a "bedside" nurse for about 5 more years. but i refuse to be a bedside nurse with a bsn..why...because the hospitals want bragging rights to your degree...."we have x amount of bsn prepared rn's"........oh but they won't compensate you for a minute. nothing wrong at all in having or getting a bsn...no education is wasted...many people have management aspirations...but i don't...and honestly, i've never seen bsn make a better clinical nurse. like others have said, it is geared toward management.. i'm considering an associates to masters program in forensic nursing. it is still clinical and definantly compensates monitarily. i don't think the angst is against the bsn nurse, but a degree, which as you say, you work you butt off for, that you don't get compensated for..lr
May 26, '02
Thanks everyone for the encouragement! I guess I can probably say that I'm going for my BSN out of conveinence (because there are no ADN programs in the area). I guess I just get a little peeved because an LPN told me that BSN's are unprepared for the "real world" because we get so "little clinical experience"... excuse me but I've had over 300 hours of clinical experience in my junior year... with much more to come my senior year.
NO... I will not be ready to compete with a 20 year LPN my first week out... maybe my first year out... but GEEE... I didn't know we were competing!
I am not interested in management... I am interested in giving the best direct patient care I can...
Anyway, thanks for listening,
When it's full empty it, when it's empty fill it, when it itches scratch it.
May 26, '02
fourbirds4me, I hear what you are saying. The main reason why I choose the BSN route over ADN route was because by the time I had decided to put in my application to the nursing program. I was unlike many students. I most of the pre-req's done. So either way for me it would have took me two years for the BSN just like two years for the ADN because I already had over half the credits for the BSN finished. Just did not have any nursing courses done. Also one other thing that was a second factor was that the ADN programs have incredibly long waiting lists in my area but most of the BSN programs do not have the waiting lists.
I also want to go on to earn my Master's degree so now it was even better that I earned my BSN even though I could have always gone back.
Sometimes with the ADN's and LPN's they would not be the way they are if some NOT all of the BSN students and nurses who have BSN's think they are better because of the higher education. I currently have classmates who constantly think they are better for earning their BSN's it makes me sick.
Anyone can be better it does not matter what degree you have. Good nurses come from all education levels just like bad one's do.
May 26, '02
i have to agree with peaceful2100 when she states:
in addition to aas/adns & lpns feeling this way, there are many diploma nurses who also feel this way.
...sometimes with the adn's and lpn's they would not be the way they are if some not all of the bsn students and nurses who have bsn's think they are better because of the higher education. i currently have classmates who constantly think they are better for earning their bsn's it makes me sick.
anyone can be better it does not matter what degree you have. good nurses come from all education levels just like bad one's do.
i'm currently enrolled in a bsn program & many instructors there have instilled the concept that bsns are better nurses because they have more education ; but i have to be honest here, i would be afraid to have many of my fellow bsn students that graduated from this particular program work on me or my family because the focus isn't on clinical know-how or knowledge for the patient...the focus is mainly on research/paper writing, pathophysiology/med-surg didactic, & nursing leadership courses than on clinical skills...yes there?s a minim amount of clinical hours required in order to graduate...but i personally feel that those hours spent in my bsn program aren't used in the most optimum way. we, the rn graduates, are expected to learn our clinical skills after graduating & working on our first job(s). we're told that's where we'll get our clinical experience...not while we're in school....i'm afraid that this school, like a lot of other schools i hear...won't even teach students how to insert ivs :angryfire...they'll just teach iv drip rates & such...they've told us that it's an insurance thing...even though we're paying quite dearly to be taught these things. i think it is for this reason that many people believe that bsn students don't receive the same amount of clinical experience as well as not getting the same amount of clinical hours as do the technical nursing students receive.
the thing that i have against this whole thing is that as a bsn graduate, one is look upon as supposedly being more knowledgeable because of the bsn degree; therefore, institutions & other healthcare professionals (doctors, social workers, therapists, & other technical nurses) expect that the bsn graduates have been taught just as much on clinicals (if not more) than the technical nurses are taught because of the higher degree. many don't understand that the bsn courses cover nursing leadership, community health nursing, research, as well as critical care nursing. people just assume that we're suppose to know everything there is to know about nursing when we graduate & be totally independent of our own nursing careers when given that first position...that's not the case & people frown when they discover that fact....hence many technical nurses being resentful whenever they have to orient new bsn graduate nurses to their positions. i'm not saying it's right or wrong...just want to give an insight as i see it.
now i can't speak on how other bsn programs work but with mine, the staff nurses are the ones whom actually teach, or should i say, show us how they run their floor & shifts. i've seen questionable techniques that were shown to some of the generic bsn nursing students, usually cutting corners, that would make your hair stand on end. the instructors get lost & you're often stuck to work-out any questions with those staff nurses... who really do mind having to have to show us students how to do things...can't say that i blame them because of the patient/nurse ratio (7:1) on a med/surg floor, i personally think that the instructors should be held 100% responsible for their student's education out on the clinical floors...those staff nurses have way too much responsibility to have to watch the students as well as perform their nursing duties or tasks. the students are often grilled, blown-off, or sometimes are shown things...things that aren't even in our scope...but are shown how to do them anyway.
many of the bsn students work with the staff nurses for a couple of hours & then they're pretty much left on their own from that point...those staff nurses will ask us a couple of pharm questions & when they're comfortable (usually within a couple of hours in working with the students), they'll co-sign the meds given & the notes written by the us students...without (in some cases) even observing all of the things written or given by us students...that's risky - imho...i'm not even sure that those staff nurses are aware that we're actually working under they're own license....i sincerely believe that they think that we're working under the instructor(s)' license(s). the instructor(s) would make a couple of rounds & ask us & or those staff nurses if there's any problems, but we're really left to work with the staff nurses or each other. i once had an instructor at this bsn program tell us to give medication with only herself & or with, get this, each other!!! she never wanted us to bother the staff nurses & she definitely didn't want us to give meds with them either...but it's alright to give meds with each other !!! a lot of my bsn instructors do take the bsn students for granted because they're so book smart...they figure that we would have the knowledge (or common sense) to go to someone if things went wrong...but i've seen where people would cover-up the fact that they don't know vital things that they should & the patients have gone down as a result...i'm not fully placing the blame on the bsn students, of course, but i do hold the instructors responsible for assuming the bsn students are more capable than their other nursing student counter parts. the instructors are supposed to be there for the student...to teach them things that they don't or wouldn't know...unfortunately, many have passed that responsibility off onto the staff rns.
fortunately for me, i have my lpn education & experience to fall back on & it really came in handy during both didactic & clinical portions of my current bsn program. i'm able to give assistance to my fellow classmates when needed & the instructors appreciated my being able to help them out. i fear without having prior nursing knowledge & experience under my belt, i would be at a disadvantage & under a lot of pressure/stress like the rest of my classmates are...so many have either failed & have to repeat the program or many just drop-out because they couldn't connect the didactic with the clinical portion. i personally decided to go into the bsn program because i was under the impression that it was the better route to go (it requires the same amount of pre-requisites as did the aas/adn program & i would graduate four months after my fellow aas/adn student friends with my bsn)...i now wished that i've gone through either the aas/adn or diploma program, then entered the rn-bsn bridge program....for i do believe that i would've learned more technical or hands-on clinical knowledge that i didn't receive in either of my lpn or bsn programs. i've compared my bsn program with some of the other aas/adn programs in my area with some of their students that i'm friends with (rotation by rotation), & i got to tell you, they know soooooooo much more than we (the bsn students) know in my present bsn program; it's a shame...the proof is in the nclex-rn pass rate...it seems that most community college (90-95%) & diploma schools (88-93%) have a higher nclex-rn pass rate than the bsn schools (83-88%) have...at least in this tri-state region (nj, pa, & del)...i watch a report on about nursing schools on a local abc tv program called visions just yesterday, & they said that the national past rate average was 83%. i can't speak for the nursing schools in your area...the averages there may be different.
i naturally can't speak for the rn-bsn students & they're curriculum as they've already obtained either a aas/adn or diploma & are currently working as rns. i would suspect that they too are given more lead-way on their clinical rotation in community health & critical care as well as their leadership & research courses.
this certainly wasn't the case in my lpn clinical rotations. the instructor(s) at that lpn program never did that. we were suppose to go through them & only them. they didn't lay their rn license(s) on the line because they dropped us off onto the staff nurses' laps...even though we too had many book smart students. if anything, we weren't even allowed to disturb the staff nurses in anyway, except in a case of an emergency. everything we learned was through the didactic courses & from our instructors....after all, that's what they're being paid for..... but again... that's imho.
Last edit by SKM-NURSIEPOOH on May 26, '02
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