University changing cirriculum mid year HELP!! - page 2

A good friend of mine called last night madder than h***. She is getting ready to take the final in peds and was ORDERED to go to a manditory meeting on the 15th or she won't get her grade. Her final... Read More

  1. by   Altra
    Quote from P_RN
    I agree with Suzanne. This is not a change in curriculum. Schools have a bulletin which outlines the order or number of courses needed for graduation. Each course is amended as new information comes around. A different assessment tool is no different than a new bit of information to be learned. You must pass that assessment/test/exam/procedure before you can advance. That's the bottom line.
    Agree. Curricula can and should change when appropriate. My school also required NLN tests at the end of each term. I don't know anyone who studied specifically for them - they were standardized tests of our accumulated knowledge up until that point.

    Best wishes to your friend as she continues her studies.
    Last edit by Altra on Nov 30, '05
  2. by   mitchsmom
    I think content of a course should certainly change as new information is available, but adding a whole new requirement for graduation is different.
  3. by   Jessy_RN
    Yes, they can do it. At my school we are to sign a waiver that says that they have the right to adjust the curriculum at anytime.
  4. by   mitchsmom
    Quote from Future_RN_Jess
    Yes, they can do it. At my school we are to sign a waiver that says that they have the right to adjust the curriculum at anytime.
    Would they be able to if you didn't sign a waiver though?
  5. by   fergus51
    I don't get the big issue. If they changed the final exam for a course or added a different type of project, it would be the same thing. I don't see why they can't change courses as they see fit to best prepare their graduates. That seems to be the most important thing.
  6. by   mitchsmom
    Quote from fergus51
    I don't get the big issue. If they changed the final exam for a course or added a different type of project, it would be the same thing. I don't see why they can't change courses as they see fit to best prepare their graduates. That seems to be the most important thing.
    At my school, they added ERI tests as a requisite for graduation, that are not really part of the courses (you just take them after each appropriate class is done of course because you just learned the material). My school has done other things too, like for example, adding a required NCLEX review course (hundreds of dollars and a full week of every day instruction that is difficult for part-timers, that was not planned for). Another example that has been very difficult for me, is my school really recruited me by touting how friendly it was for distance and part-time learners, but has since changed many of the virtual courses to on-campus courses, and has also made some classes have more clinical days - VERY difficult when I live 110 miles away, (one-way) and I chose that school based on those things that were in place and promised when I applied and started.

    From reading this thread, it seems like students are more bothered by this issue than teachers or people who are already out of school. Would it be a fair comparison to think about it this way - how would you feel if your place of work violated the contract or conditions under which you were hired for your job? (I know there's no perfect comparison but I'm trying to think of something).

    Even if it is considered legal, I don't think it's good business practice (just as it may technically be legal to hire someone for a job and then change things that were promised, but then that business would probably not have a good reputation). I am mostly happy with other aspects of my program at school but I would not recommend it to someone else based on this. My 2 cents FWIW.
    Last edit by mitchsmom on Nov 30, '05
  7. by   Jolie
    Quote from mitchsmom
    My school has done other things too, like for example, adding a required NCLEX review course (hundreds of dollars and a full week of every day instruction that is difficult for part-timers, that was not planned for).

    Even if it is considered legal, I don't think it's good business practice...

    REQUIRED you to take an NCLEX review course? This is insane! What in the world did you pay tuition for, if your own school doesn't have confidence in the abilities of its graduates to pass NCLEX?

    I am not convinced that mid-stream curriculum changes are legal. I would consider consulting an attorney if my school did this to me. Fortunately, I graduated 20 years ago, and knew no one who wasted money on an NCLEX review. And our class had a 97% pass rate.
  8. by   fergus51
    Quote from mitchsmom
    At my school, they added ERI tests as a requisite for graduation, that are not really part of the courses (you just take them after each appropriate class is done of course because you just learned the material). My school has done other things too, like for example, adding a required NCLEX review course (hundreds of dollars and a full week of every day instruction that is difficult for part-timers, that was not planned for). Another example that has been very difficult for me, is my school really recruited me by touting how friendly it was for distance and part-time learners, but has since changed many of the virtual courses to on-campus courses, and has also made some classes have more clinical days - VERY difficult when I live 110 miles away, (one-way) and I chose that school based on those things that were in place and promised when I applied and started.

    From reading this thread, it seems like students are more bothered by this issue than teachers or people who are already out of school. Would it be a fair comparison to think about it this way - how would you feel if your place of work violated the contract or conditions under which you were hired for your job? (I know there's no perfect comparison but I'm trying to think of something).

    Even if it is considered legal, I don't think it's good business practice (just as it may technically be legal to hire someone for a job and then change things that were promised, but then that business would probably not have a good reputation). I am mostly happy with other aspects of my program at school but I would not recommend it to someone else based on this. My 2 cents FWIW.
    I think part of the reason I feel this way is because I have had things changed on me at work, like most people probably have (and in school too). If tomorrow they decide it will be nurses and not RTs to draw the blood gases, I'd have to do it. I couldn't say "That wasn't part of the original deal so I refuse!". If they decide I have to wear hospital scrubs instead of my own personal scrubs, I'd have to do that too. If they decide to mandate I get ACLS to work in NICU, I'd have to do that too even if I think it's stupid. I think it's kind of silly to require that I have basic adult CPR to work in NICU, but I do have to have it, so that's that. The requirements for employment do change after you get hired sometimes, just like school requirements can change.

    To me, it seems like they are using this test like they would use any final exam and I don't see that as being completely unreasonable. Schools have final exams. I don't think you know as a student the exact course outline of every class before you start school and I don't think you necessarily have to.
  9. by   Altra
    Quote from mitchsmom
    From reading this thread, it seems like students are more bothered by this issue than teachers or people who are already out of school. Would it be a fair comparison to think about it this way - how would you feel if your place of work violated the contract or conditions under which you were hired for your job? (I know there's no perfect comparison but I'm trying to think of something).

    Even if it is considered legal, I don't think it's good business practice (just as it may technically be legal to hire someone for a job and then change things that were promised, but then that business would probably not have a good reputation).
    My two cents, FWIW ...

    Things change. My employer doesn't exist for the sake of employing me, or any other employee, under the exact conditions which existed on the day I agree to take the job. It exists to provide patient care, however it decides to do so, within the parameters of accepted medical practice, the health care market/economy & all applicable federal, state & local laws. These parameters change, frequently. I have absolutely no doubt that if I remained in my current position for the rest of my working life (approx. 30 years), my responsibilities, tasks and practices would change drastically, and repeatedly, in that time.

    Fergus' example about a specific task, drawing ABGs, is a good one.

    I am by no means a legal expert, but I disagree with the notion that a college catalog published on a certain date constitutes some kind of contract with students. I think that the attainment of a degree is not a contract which is negotiated by 2 parties.

    To the OP: I hope that the substitution of the ATI exam for the HESI doesn't turn out to be too traumatic for your friend, and that she moves on to a successful career after graduation.
  10. by   mitchsmom
    Oops... it keeps reposting...
    Last edit by mitchsmom on Nov 30, '05
  11. by   mitchsmom
    I do agree that there will always be change, like I said I think changes should certainly be made to keep courses up to date. And I think schools should change as needed in general, just certain things are not appropriate to change midstream, they should be done for the next matriculating class.

    And the ABG's, etc. is a good example in the work place, but after a certain point I think it eclipses the reasonable, expected sorts of changes. ABG's and small stuff like that are not really contractual type items (and admittedly adding one screening exam may not be, either... not sure where you draw the line). I guess it's just a big thing to me because my school has done a lot of this and it has seriously had a huge effect on my life for the last 2 years (lifestyle & finances). If it was just one test or some small things here and there maybe it wouldn't be a big deal to me either. ABG's is one thing, but I'm sure everyone has a point at which change would be unacceptable.

    To each his own
    Last edit by mitchsmom on Nov 30, '05
  12. by   mitchsmom
    oops... I'm trying to edit & make my thoughts more clear and it's reposting!
  13. by   NRSKarenRN
    Quote from kwagner_51
    now they are trying to hurt the good students because some of my class can't pass boards.
    "because some of my class can't pass boards" this is the real issue and concern here.

    state boards of nursing require nursing schools to have a minimum pass rate on first attempt. those schools who students fall below this pass rate (usually after 2 years) must come up with a remedial plan to improve passing state boards so the sbon doesn't close the school due to not meeting standards.

    schools can change testing requirements after notifying the students. they are not changing courses offered. part of the report to sbon is review of course content, teaching strategies so changing to a different test to help identify students with low possibility of passing boards is imperative.
    since these tests/exams have proven correlation with passing boards, most sbon allow exactly what your nursing program is doing. those that don't pass the test, have areas of weakness identified. school should be offering remediation then taking test again. if student does not pass, then they need to repeat course entirely.

    this is no different than what is done in medical school with needing to pass mcat testing. one can graduate with a 4.0 gpa but until you pass the licensing exam, one is not a nurse/physician. the moderating team has become increasing alarmed by the number of bb members who have posted unable to pass nclex on 3, 5 even 7 tries. healthcare professionals are held to the highest standards because what we do affects peoples lives.

    offering to help identify areas of weakness, go over difficult material with this student, offer your experiences with hesi to lessen test anxiety would be a great way to help them succeed.

    pa nurse practice act

    21.26. failing rate of a school in examination.

    if 40% or more of the first-time examinees of a school of nursing writing the examination in this commonwealth fail the examination, the school will be placed on provisional approval status. the board may consider additional documented statistics concerning the examination scores received in other states by commonwealth graduates in determining the status of the school.



    21.33. types of approval

    provisional. the board may place on provisional approval a school not meeting the acceptable standards. a period of 2 years will be the maximum time allowed for the correction of deficiencies resulting in provisional approval. if the standards are not met within this designated time, the school will be removed from the approved list.

    http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/04...toc.html#21.26.



    nj practice act:



    [font=timesnewromanps-boldmt]
    13:37-1.17 conditional accreditation



    [font=timesnewromanpsmt]
    (a) the board shall place an accredited program on conditional accreditation if:
    1. the program fails to meet or maintain the standards and requirements for accreditation contained
    in this subchapter; or
    2. less than 80 percent of its graduates achieve passing grades in the licensing examination.




    [font=timesnewromanpsmt]
    (b) the board may limit the number of students enrolled in a program placed on conditional accreditation.
    the institution shall be given the opportunity for a hearing to appeal this decision.
    (c) the program shall be notified by letter of conditional accreditation by the board including any conditions which must be corrected within a specific time period established by the board.
    (d) the board may, upon request, remove a program from conditional accreditation if it can be [font=timesnewromanpsmt]demonstrated that the standards and requirements contained in this subchapter have been met.

    [font=timesnewromanpsmt]


    13:37-1.18 probation

    a program may be placed on probation when its graduates fail to achieve 80 percent passing on the licensing examinations for two consecutive years. a program placed on probation shall not admit new or transfer students into the program. the institution shall be given the opportunity for a hearing to
    appeal this decision.



    glad to see these sbon regulations help to maintain quality education and qualified pratitioners




    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Dec 1, '05

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