tension between EMT and LTC nurses? - page 9

i was reading some of the prehospital forum on a different medical board hoping to get some info and insight into their job because if there is a lag time between finishing my rn prereqs i have been... Read More

  1. by   smk1
    Quote from PA-C in Texas
    Well let's just examine these ad hominem attacks. Do I think nurses are inferior to me? Personally, no. As far as their education level? Yes. Level of care they provide? Yes.

    inferior education level? maybe, depends on the nurse. they could be masters prepared or have a doctorate which would make their educational "level" equal to yours or higher.Just in a different chosen field. Obviously I can agree that the "level of care" a nurse would provide would be "inferior" to a PA-C (unless the nurse is an NP which we aren't discussing here.)

    Like I said, never try to reason with the very insecure. I also love how you twisted my words to suit your own purpose. So even though you seem to be verbally incontinent, you do seem to be smart in a conniving sort of way.

    no real response needed here i'm sure we can all infer what I am thinking.....

    Do I think Paramedics provide better emergency care? In general, yes. If you took a new Paramedic graduate and a new RN graduate, I would take the paramedic any day.

    I would agree with this statement! This is what paramedics are edcucated and trained specifically for. I never said anything to dispute this issue.

    Do I think Paramedics are more educated? No, not per se. They obviously practice at a higher skill level, and are trained to handle just about any sort of medical emergency, but emergency medicine does not encompass everything.

    I also say no. based on comparing curriculum from similar level schools, (paramedic, RN associates level) RN students have more credit hours and science hours and the actual program is a bit longer as well). However medics do learn some skills that nursings schools do not focus on. Medics are trained to know a lot about a emergency medicine, RN's are trained to know some about many different areas. The training is not equal obviously, but yes nurses have a wider "range" of knowledge that a paramedic doesn't necessarily have (or need to perform his or her job).

    Yes I respect nurses, but when they start beating their chests and try to put other professions down, I am happy to remind them about their OWN profession.
    I for one never put other professions down, I just didn't like what I saw in YOUR posts.
    Last edit by smk1 on Apr 11, '04
  2. by   finchertwins
    This subject has been a source of problem for both prehospital, out of hospital, and in hospital staff. I have worked as a EMP-P for over 8 years and am a nurse now. So it is easy for me to see both sides. There is never a good excuse to be rude on either side.

    As a Paramedic when going to a LTC facility it was frustrating at times when the medical staff on hand acted as if they were burdened by our presence and was put out when we asked for information. We had to know basics both for the hospital and for billing info. If we did not get this info then we were not meeting our job mandates or legal obligations. To this day I can remember 2 cases that still upset me. The first was a code, the staff called 911 with a pt in cardiac arrest we arrived in less than 4 minutes and went to the room and found no one doing anything just standing around. This lady happened to be one of my favorite there and died more than likely because of inaction(she choked to death). The second one was for a routine xray visit to a local clinic, it was scheduled two days in advance. When we arrived we went back to the room and was horrified by what we saw, this poor human being was in so much pain, her shoulder, humerus, clavicle were shattered. We did not need an xray to know this. She stayed in bed for almost four days prior to making the appointment, so all together six days.

    Not everyone can claim these reasons for dislike or rudness but a good majority of them have like stories.

    On the other hand while working in the ER I had a paramedic try to treat me as an idiot until he realized I used to be his boss when I was a paramedic. The greatest problem is in order for paramedics and emt's to survive the stress of the job they have big ego's that have to seem unbreakable, though I know this as wrong.

    There is little understanding of what it takes to be a good nurse and what it takes to be a good paramedic, they are nothing alike and require different mind sets. Until the day these two fields interchange, which will not go well, there will always be friction. I would never want a nurse to work on me in a car wreck, also would never want a paramedic to take care of me in the hospital(anything outside the ER). Have a good day and just ignore ignorant people.:angryfire :chuckle
  3. by   aurora_borealis
    "As far as changing field IVs- we don't do that very much where I work for several different reasons that someone in a different area of nursing might not know about. With MVAs that possibly have multiple fractures, or even a femur fracture for example, and EMT knows that pt is going to need at least a 16 gauge IV to get some fluid replacement sqeezed into the pt before they go into shock. They are also going to need lots of blood, etc. after they come to us. Are we going to change to a #20 and hope the blood gets in them, or are we going to keep the #16, etc. that they might need? Just because you don't know why they've put in a #14 or 16 doesn't mean they didn't have a darn good reason for doing so, based on what they know and what they can reasonably expect to happen to the pt."


    I said it was HOSPITAL policy, not mine, to change IV starts. The reason for it was that any line started in the field may not have been under the most sterile conditions, and our hospital had an IV team. And it was within 24 hours. I'm not suggesting yanking out a perfectly good 16g in a trauma victim for God's sake.
  4. by   ceceliajane2003
    [nurses less edu. than emt or paramedics4navy
    hello,
    dont be discouraged of some you think emt--paramedics more educated. they're trained in a 6wk--3month course for emergent episodes, to carry the patient to the next highest level of care.nurses and doctors, surgeons ans specialists. haaaaaahahhahahahahahaaaaaaaahaaaa----thats a good one. but, we're all in a tight knit circle together, we need each part. truly---take care, good luck in whatever venue you work
    :chuckle
  5. by   NursesRmofun
    Haven't had much experience with this sort of problem until recently. However, recently I have noticed mucho attitude coming from EMTs and Paramedics who do not think the patient should be transfered to the ER. We have a MD present (inhouse 8 a.m.-6 p.m. usually) who makes the final decision to send them. Truth is, if a patient is in distress and not comfort care, we have to respond to their complaints or symptoms and send them out where emergency care is available. That's my take on it with minimal experience in this area thus far.
  6. by   flashpoint
    dont be discouraged of some you think emt--paramedics more educated. they're trained in a 6wk--3month course for emergent episodes, to carry the patient to the next highest level of care.NURSES and Doctors, SURGEONS ans SPECIALISTS.
    6 weeks - 3 months? For what??? Here, the Basic EMT class is at least 6 MONTHS and most paramedic programs are two YEARS minimum! No one calls EMS because they are in a situation that they can handle themselves...and we are more trained in stabilization and trasport or patients...you could do it yourself otherwise.
  7. by   Jailhouse RN
    EMT/Paramedics and LTC nurses have vastly different roles. The RN has a clear knowledge base superiority. How ever it must be understood that these two groups of people serve very different functions. How ever to the EMT/Paramedics who think you are so much better educated, listen to your radio when getting medical direction.....It is in many cases an ICU/CCU/Trauma based RN/NP that is giving your the direction you require to do your function. I hope they don't want to try and take on Corrections Nurses.
    I have worked as an EMT/Paramedic and as a flight nurse. I was a nurse in the Army and privilidges beyond any Paramedic. You cannot contrast people who work in different environments. A Field Trained or RN/Flight Nurse is better able to function and is more independent than a Paramedic. Just a little food for thought.......I'll take the nurse any time. Kind of like I want an MD not a PA. Who there is better trained?
    Last edit by canoehead on Sep 15, '04 : Reason: personal attack
  8. by   BBFRN
    Jailhouse, I agree about corrections nurses. I was one for a little over a year, and they do lots of EMT duties- among tons of nursing, etc. duties. They're a whole other breed- and an admirable bunch.
  9. by   tiroka03
    Just an update. I had written that I learned a lot from this particular topic. So, I decieded to put it to the test. We had to call for EMT services to transport a patient to the hospital. So, along with everything else we needed to do to prepare the pt for transport, I also made a copy of the diagnosis for the EMT. As I was giving him the run down on the pt, I also handed him the papers I made for him. As he took it, he looked at me with a strange look, and said, "Wow, for me? THanks"

    I like to think, that this post has contributed to better care for that particular patient. I have also spoken to the people I work with about the things I read in the post. They say, it's a good idea, and are willing to do more to assist the EMT's with what they need.

    THanks.
  10. by   MMiz
    Quote from walkmygardenpath
    Just an update. I had written that I learned a lot from this particular topic. So, I decieded to put it to the test. We had to call for EMT services to transport a patient to the hospital. So, along with everything else we needed to do to prepare the pt for transport, I also made a copy of the diagnosis for the EMT. As I was giving him the run down on the pt, I also handed him the papers I made for him. As he took it, he looked at me with a strange look, and said, "Wow, for me? THanks"

    I like to think, that this post has contributed to better care for that particular patient. I have also spoken to the people I work with about the things I read in the post. They say, it's a good idea, and are willing to do more to assist the EMT's with what they need.

    THanks.
    As an EMT, I can't tell you how much I truly appreciate when I get a "cover sheet" and extensive medical background. There is no better feeling than transporting a patient and knowing the details. There is also no better feeling than being able to take off 30 - 60 minutes of paperwork.

    Thank you to all those nurses who take a minute or two and give us history and maybe even copies of a chart.
  11. by   ceceliajane2003
    [HEY---WOW--I am impressed. thats awesome---I still have the utmost respect dude---
    lisa
  12. by   emsKyle
    it sounds as if most people are from the us, i'm in canada so things may be different up here, i don't know. it's disheartening to read these postings about the strained relationships between ltc staff and medics. i regret that some ltc staff have had bad run-ins with some ems staff. i'm a paramedic and have been for six years in an area that has a lot of ltc facilities, so i'm no stranger to them. i've had calls where ltc staff say 'mr. jones' is "short of breath" and we find him flat on his back in bed with course crackles in all lung fields or even vsa with agonal resps. and when we ask how long 'mr. jones' has been like that, medical history, paper work, etc. we're yelled at "just take him to the hospital!" that being said i've worked with medics who were ignorant to staff and regrettably the odd time to the patient. there are unprofessional and even incompetent people on both sides of the fence. as for the "trauma case" comment i would think anyone in any line of work looks forward to those brief moments of excitement to break up an otherwise monotonous day. both professions can be extremely stressful for a lot of the same reasons and for a lot of reasons that are unique to their environment. comments like "emt's are equally rude to their patients" are simply inapproportite, derogatory; they serve no purpose and make no one look good.







    Quote from headhurt
    maybe the emts are just hacked off because it is not a trauma case that most tend to thrive on. either that, or they have some sort of inferiority complex that they are working through.

    don't worry...emt's are equally rude to their patients. i was in an accident, my face badly burned, blind as a bat. i was in extreme agony, and when i asked for something to put on my face, i got yelled at by the emt for being impatient. well, excuse me butthole, but it is not your face that feels like someone threw acid on!!!
  13. by   Lmoynihan
    Hi,
    I hope I can address some things for you. I am both a Paramedic and a Nurse. I agree that there is a lot of bad blood between nurses and Paramedics. Part of the reason, I think, is that the fields are so DIFFERENT.
    People assume since it's medicine they are related. The're NOT. Nurses are taught a very broad range of things, but nothing truly in depth. Paramedics are taught a much smaller range but the things we are taught are very indepth. The emergency medicine I was taught in nursing school only took a week or so. Paramedics take at least a full year to learn nothing but emergency medicine. On the other hand we are taught almost nothing of the other aspects of nursing. Part of the problem too, is that the info you get as a nurse sometimes contradicts what you're taught as a Paramedic.So unfortunatly Paramedics assume that nurses are not as smart and Paramedics are egotistical( that comes with the nature of the job). But the bottom line should be ...We all need to repect the education and experiences that each other have. I hope this helped alittle.

    Quote from smkoepke
    i was reading some of the prehospital forum on a different medical board hoping to get some info and insight into their job because if there is a lag time between finishing my rn prereqs i have been thinking i might enroll in the emt-b program, to get a heads up on a few skills. Anyway i was really disappointed to see the disrespectful posts regarding nurses and in particular LTC nurses. I have considered the source of course (because the board is a part of SDN), but i still was surprised at the overwhelming belief that nurses are not as well educated as paramedics or even emts. (among the ems providers this seemed to be the consensus at least) At my school the RN program not only has more gen ed requirements and (higher levels at that) but more science such as chemistry and microbiology and nutrition., so i don't quite understand where this idea of nurses knowing less is coming from. I guess i am just disappointed to see other non-doctor medical personnel downing nursing. I think that everyone has a vital role and don't see why the bashing is necessary.

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