Survey: Should nurses from other countries be recruited to aid in the nursing shortag

LadyBugRN · Jul 1, 2004

rep:
toefl ( test on english as a foreign language) and tse ( test on spoken english).
these have absolutely nothing to do with medical communication, or "medical english" if you will.
i spent six years in seville, spain. upon leaving the country for the last time, i was very fluent (and spoke formal castillian more correctly than most of the natives -as happens when its a true second language) but if i were to suddenly have been thrust into the medical community, and had to translate for a nurse/doctor/etc. to a patient, regarding their medical condition and treatment, i'd not have been up to the challenge. the "toefl" and "tse" fall into the same category. ok, they can understand cnn. big deal. they will be able to go for a night out on the town. but thats hardly preparing or even showing one is prepared, for the communication requirements in the english-speaking medical world of hospitalized patients, staff and ancillary care-givers.
the question was answered in compliance with the rules or parameters set forth in the original post. don't go changing the parameters without fair warning.

so do you agree? that there is a shortage of nurses and should we have foreign nurse graduates to work in american hospitals and/or healthcare facilities?

LadyBugRN · Jul 1, 2004

rep:
toefl ( test on english as a foreign language) and tse ( test on spoken english).
these have absolutely nothing to do with medical communication, or "medical english" if you will.
i spent six years in seville, spain. upon leaving the country for the last time, i was very fluent (and spoke formal castillian more correctly than most of the natives -as happens when its a true second language) but if i were to suddenly have been thrust into the medical community, and had to translate for a nurse/doctor/etc. to a patient, regarding their medical condition and treatment, i'd not have been up to the challenge. the "toefl" and "tse" fall into the same category. ok, they can understand cnn. big deal. they will be able to go for a night out on the town. but thats hardly preparing or even showing one is prepared, for the communication requirements in the english-speaking medical world of hospitalized patients, staff and ancillary care-givers.
the question was answered in compliance with the rules or parameters set forth in the original post. don't go changing the parameters without fair warning.

so do you agree? that there is a shortage of nurses and should we have foreign nurse graduates to work in american hospitals and/or healthcare facilities?

Rep · Jul 2, 2004

On this thread, one has only to answer "yes' or "no."
In my view, many posters have been quite clear as to their reasons for opposing the recruitment of foreign nurses. You have simply chosen to reject those reasons. You believe that successfully completing the TOEFL and TSE exams guarantees adequate communication skills; From recent personal experience I would strongly argue that is not the case. You choose to believe that increasing the pool of willing workers at the lower end of the pay range does not have the effect of depressing wages; I could offer countless examples, both theoretical and in the marketplace that it does.
.
Simply said, more of the responses here against the recruitment of foreign nurses are subjective in nature and therefore do not address the problem at hand.
As for the English exams, when you passed it, it means you have the skills and capacity to communicate in English with your patients and fellow health colleages.
From where I am now. English is our second language. It is the medium of instruction in schools, in the workplace, etc. As Filipinos nurses, we spent four years in nursing schools/clinicals and the textbooks we used are written in English. In fact, the authors are American. So we Filipinos nurses are familiar with the type of medical English spoken in hospital setting.
As for wages, as an entry level nurse. One has to start at the legal lower end of the pay range. Foreign nurses with years of hospital experience are considered neophyte in the American setting therefore they start at the lower end of the pay range.
Hope this info helps regarding us Filipino ( foreigners) nurses. :)

Rep · Jul 2, 2004

On this thread, one has only to answer "yes' or "no."
In my view, many posters have been quite clear as to their reasons for opposing the recruitment of foreign nurses. You have simply chosen to reject those reasons. You believe that successfully completing the TOEFL and TSE exams guarantees adequate communication skills; From recent personal experience I would strongly argue that is not the case. You choose to believe that increasing the pool of willing workers at the lower end of the pay range does not have the effect of depressing wages; I could offer countless examples, both theoretical and in the marketplace that it does.
.
Simply said, more of the responses here against the recruitment of foreign nurses are subjective in nature and therefore do not address the problem at hand.
As for the English exams, when you passed it, it means you have the skills and capacity to communicate in English with your patients and fellow health colleages.
From where I am now. English is our second language. It is the medium of instruction in schools, in the workplace, etc. As Filipinos nurses, we spent four years in nursing schools/clinicals and the textbooks we used are written in English. In fact, the authors are American. So we Filipinos nurses are familiar with the type of medical English spoken in hospital setting.
As for wages, as an entry level nurse. One has to start at the legal lower end of the pay range. Foreign nurses with years of hospital experience are considered neophyte in the American setting therefore they start at the lower end of the pay range.
Hope this info helps regarding us Filipino ( foreigners) nurses. :)

Rep · Jul 2, 2004

Rep, I don't think anyone is blaming foreign nurses from coming here. But like it or not, foreign recruitment allows hospitals to ignore the problems they have foisted onto their staff. Nurses can be as organized and vocal as they like, but they will never be able to affect real change as long as they can be replaced by a cheaper, more submissive alternative. Fortunately I work in unionized environments and that does not happen.
As an aside, how can you say that language barriers are not a valid concern? It doesn't matter if it is the foreign nurse's fault or not, but if she can't communicate with staff and patients (and that means the English that is spoken on the streets as well as that you hear on CNN), she is not safe to practice. Patient safety is a valid concern imho.

Fergus,

We can only blame the system that foster this problem. Foreign nurses look this "nursing shortage" as an opportunity for them to come and work in the US. Nobody can blame them for that.

I didn't say that language is not a valid concern. In fact, language is very important in this kind of job. How can a nurse communicates well with his/her patients and staff if he/she is not adequately prepare on this aspect of communication. Even one who has all the skills needed to become a "perfect nurse" can be a moron when he/she does not have good communication skills especially the use of medical language.

Speaking for the Filipino nurses, we spent four years in nursing schools/clinicals. The language we used is English. The books we used in nursing are American textbook written by American authors. Therefore, we filipino nurses are familiar with medical English.

I do appreciate your comments on me. :)

Rep · Jul 2, 2004

Rep, I don't think anyone is blaming foreign nurses from coming here. But like it or not, foreign recruitment allows hospitals to ignore the problems they have foisted onto their staff. Nurses can be as organized and vocal as they like, but they will never be able to affect real change as long as they can be replaced by a cheaper, more submissive alternative. Fortunately I work in unionized environments and that does not happen.
As an aside, how can you say that language barriers are not a valid concern? It doesn't matter if it is the foreign nurse's fault or not, but if she can't communicate with staff and patients (and that means the English that is spoken on the streets as well as that you hear on CNN), she is not safe to practice. Patient safety is a valid concern imho.

Fergus,

We can only blame the system that foster this problem. Foreign nurses look this "nursing shortage" as an opportunity for them to come and work in the US. Nobody can blame them for that.

I didn't say that language is not a valid concern. In fact, language is very important in this kind of job. How can a nurse communicates well with his/her patients and staff if he/she is not adequately prepare on this aspect of communication. Even one who has all the skills needed to become a "perfect nurse" can be a moron when he/she does not have good communication skills especially the use of medical language.

Speaking for the Filipino nurses, we spent four years in nursing schools/clinicals. The language we used is English. The books we used in nursing are American textbook written by American authors. Therefore, we filipino nurses are familiar with medical English.

I do appreciate your comments on me. :)

fergus51 · Jul 2, 2004

Rep, I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that passing an English exam DOES NOT necessarily mean you can communicate in English well enough to practise nursing. I have never seen this as a huge problem with the Phillipino nurses I work with, because as you pointed out they were trained in English, but I have seen it with Asian nurses from HK, mainland China and India. It isn't just about medical terminology either. Some of them had such strong accents that patients and family members couldn't understand them.

fergus51 · Jul 2, 2004

Rep, I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that passing an English exam DOES NOT necessarily mean you can communicate in English well enough to practise nursing. I have never seen this as a huge problem with the Phillipino nurses I work with, because as you pointed out they were trained in English, but I have seen it with Asian nurses from HK, mainland China and India. It isn't just about medical terminology either. Some of them had such strong accents that patients and family members couldn't understand them.

Rep · Jul 2, 2004

rep:
toefl ( test on english as a foreign language) and tse ( test on spoken english).
these have absolutely nothing to do with medical communication, or "medical english" if you will.
i spent six years in seville, spain. upon leaving the country for the last time, i was very fluent (and spoke formal castillian more correctly than most of the natives -as happens when its a true second language) but if i were to suddenly have been thrust into the medical community, and had to translate for a nurse/doctor/etc. to a patient, regarding their medical condition and treatment, i'd not have been up to the challenge. the "toefl" and "tse" fall into the same category. ok, they can understand cnn. big deal. they will be able to go for a night out on the town. but thats hardly preparing or even showing one is prepared, for the communication requirements in the english-speaking medical world of hospitalized patients, staff and ancillary care-givers.
the question was answered in compliance with the rules or parameters set forth in the original post. don't go changing the parameters without fair warning.

since language is your outmost concern then i tell you something about us.

speaking for the filipino nurses, we spent four years in nursing schools/clinicals. our language of instruction is english. the nursing and medical books we used are written by american authors. therefore, we filipino nurses including other nationalities whose language of instruction is english are familiar with the type of medical english used in an american hospital environment.

by the way, the americans stayed in our country for fifty years and english is our second national language. nobody has a monopoly on the english language. cnn and foxnews are breakfast to us. :)

Rep · Jul 2, 2004

rep:
toefl ( test on english as a foreign language) and tse ( test on spoken english).
these have absolutely nothing to do with medical communication, or "medical english" if you will.
i spent six years in seville, spain. upon leaving the country for the last time, i was very fluent (and spoke formal castillian more correctly than most of the natives -as happens when its a true second language) but if i were to suddenly have been thrust into the medical community, and had to translate for a nurse/doctor/etc. to a patient, regarding their medical condition and treatment, i'd not have been up to the challenge. the "toefl" and "tse" fall into the same category. ok, they can understand cnn. big deal. they will be able to go for a night out on the town. but thats hardly preparing or even showing one is prepared, for the communication requirements in the english-speaking medical world of hospitalized patients, staff and ancillary care-givers.
the question was answered in compliance with the rules or parameters set forth in the original post. don't go changing the parameters without fair warning.

since language is your outmost concern then i tell you something about us.

speaking for the filipino nurses, we spent four years in nursing schools/clinicals. our language of instruction is english. the nursing and medical books we used are written by american authors. therefore, we filipino nurses including other nationalities whose language of instruction is english are familiar with the type of medical english used in an american hospital environment.

by the way, the americans stayed in our country for fifty years and english is our second national language. nobody has a monopoly on the english language. cnn and foxnews are breakfast to us. :)

pickledpepperRN · Jul 2, 2004

My experience is that young nurses from the Philippines cannot be distinguished from native US citizens.

Those my age and up to 30 years younger mostly have a distinctive accent that appeals to me because it reminds me of so many nurse friends.

I did have a patient tell me that because she is hard of hearing accents confuse her.

The most difficult nurse for me to understand was from northern Scotland, an Enlish speaker since birth.

As she worked and lived here she now has a pleasing easily understood brogue.

Nurses in the California Nurses Association have negotiated pay based on years of experience, including foreign experience. One hospital (at least) gives one years credit for two years as an RN outside the uS. Another give 100% credit.

Many people in Los Angeles would not be alive today if not for the Philippino nurses. We also benefit from our nurses from Asia, Europe, Canada, and both continents South of the equator. And a few Kiwis too!.

pickledpepperRN · Jul 2, 2004