Shabbos/Religious Observances

[texasmommy]

As I begin the applications process for nursing schools, I have one huuuuge concern - my religious obligations. I am not permitted to work/attend school, etc. from sunset Friday nights until an hour past sunset on Saturday nights because of the Jewish sabbath. I've heard that a lot of programs have 12hr clinicals on Saturdays...yikes! Has anyone "worked it out" with similar obligations?

[vashtee, RN]

The fact this discussion started say it is and issue. An employer can indeed get in trouble for not hiring someone who refuses to work on certain days based on religion. THis person can easily bring charges of religious discrimination and in a sense it is.

I have never heard of a single case where anyone got sued for religious discrimination for not hiring someone who was unwilling to work the necessary hours. Can you? As far as I know, it can only be called religious discrimination if an employer refuses to hire ANY Jews (or Christians, etc.), which is obviously not the case in a hospital.

Again, I think people would do better to quit worrying about everyone ELSE'S schedule, and started worrying about their own. This isn't a slave nation. If you aren't happy working Sundays, renegotiate your contract or find a different job. ::shrug::

[RN1989]

I have never heard of a single case where anyone got sued for religious discrimination for not hiring someone who was unwilling to work the necessary hours. Can you?

You may not hear of these things but it does happen. The Seventh Day Adventist church has an entire Religious Liberty Department that helps to mediate problems between employers and their Sabbathkeeping employees. It is much more common than you might think.

As a teenager, I had an issue with Sabbath work. I applied to a local fast food restaurant and was denied based on refusal to work on Sabbath. At that time, it was just not one of those things that my parents were going to fight. At another fast food job, in my interview I was asked if I was open to flexible hours and working "anytime". I thought that the manager was asking me about if I was available to work late nights. After I was hired and was scheduled for a Friday night and Saturday shifts, I told the manager that I couldn't work. He was angry and that is when our miscommunication in the interview came out. He told me that if he had known that I wasn't able to work on Friday nights and Saturdays he would not have hired me, but that he couldn't fire me now without getting into trouble. Turns out, they were so happy with my work that they begged me not to go away to college. But the fact remains, had he known that I would not work a fast food job on Sabbath - he would not have hired me.

This kind of thing does not make news but it happens all the time. Even I have been surprised at how often it happens when I hear about it at church. Usually a lawsuit is a last resort though. Our church really tries to avoid that and want to educate employers not sue them, unless absolutely necessary. Also, attorneys only take cases that will get them big bucks. Even if a case is winnable, these types of cases usually do not net them enough cash for the work they do for the attorneys to want to take these types of cases routinely.

[Agnus]

You may not hear of these things but it does happen.

This kind of thing does not make news but it happens all the time. attorneys only take cases that will get them big bucks.

True. However there are attoreys who will take on causes they believe in that do not net a profit. There have also been some class action cases. And ACLU who will go to bat for you.

A law suit is not the answer to every situation even when it is winnable. As you said the reality of life is there has to be something in it for the attorney who takes it on.

[vashtee, RN]

He told me that if he had known that I wasn't able to work on Friday nights and Saturdays he would not have hired me, but that he couldn't fire me now without getting into trouble. Turns out, they were so happy with my work that they begged me not to go away to college. But the fact remains, had he known that I would not work a fast food job on Sabbath - he would not have hired me.

To be honest, I wouldn't have blamed him.

An employer can't be forced to hire someone who isn't available to work the hours they are needed, but they can't fire someone for religious reasons. This is why they ask you about scheduling BEFORE they hire you. Once you are in, it is a different story.

[Agnus]

There is another twist on this. When someone converts or decides to change their own religious practice after taking a job they must make some tough decisions.

In this case the employer I believe can not be held responsible for the change in direction the worker takes. Perhaps legally he can. I don't know how this actually works.

The way I see it if you are hired agreeing to work on a holy day then later change religions or your personal practice you should take full responsibility for your decision. You made it not the employer. You told the employer you were willing to work holy days. Nnow because of a change of religious practice on your part you can't.

Am I straying too far from original topic to post this? I do see this as a real delima for the worker. It happens.

[vashtee, RN]

There is another twist on this. When someone converts or decides to change their own religious practice after taking a job they must make some tough decisions.

In this case the employer I believe can not be held responsible for the change in direction the worker takes.

Finally! Common ground.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

I think it's sad that we live in a 24/7 fast paced society. The whole aim of the Sabbath, Jesus said, is to serve man, which means that resting is good for us. Our society not balanced, too materialistic and out of harmony with itself.

[Agnus]

I think it's sad that we live in a 24/7 fast paced society. The whole aim of the Sabbath, Jesus said, is to serve man, which means that resting is good for us. Our society not balanced, too materialistic and out of harmony with itself.

Long before we were a 24/7 society we cared for the sick 24/7. We had needs that required someone's labor 24/7

[Agnus]

ttttt

It would be nice if I could delete my own post without having to put in 5 chacters. I posted then changed my mind and now this is what you get. 5 chacters: ttttt

[bagladyrn, RN]

I don't mind working extra weekends, or moving my schedule around to accomodate special days for other employees. That being said, what I would like is for those others to realize that this is something I do as a favor to them, not an obligation that I owe. I think acknowlegement of this and occasional expression of appreciation would go a long way to easing resentment that might be felt by coworkers. Even going out of your way a bit (working for them when they want to be off or being willing to trade even if it breaks up your week - once in a while) and letting them know that you are doing it out of appreciation for their favors to you should help a lot.

This really spans more than just days off - I've performed other nursing tasks to accomodate those whose beliefs make it difficult or forbidden for them to perform those tasks. An example away from the more common beliefs is to attend to a dying patient on another unit for the nurse whose beliefs concerning the dead would require extensive ceremonial cleansing if present at the actual death. (Yes this is in the United States). I've traded assignments on OB midshift when a relative of another nurse came in and custom forbid the kind of intimacy between related persons that OB care demands. Again, the appreciation expressed by those individuals made me more than willing to go out of my way to do so.

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

title vii of the civil rights act of 1964 (title vii), which prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin

federal laws prohibiting job discrimination: questions and answers

religious accommodation

• an employer is required to reasonably accommodate the religious belief of an employee or prospective employee, unless doing so would impose an undue hardship.

[lamazeteacher]

Agnus, your curiosity is credible, and to answer your question about the care of someone sick in the home of orthodox people, it is a no brainer. Of course you look after them, and do what is needed.

One of the most inventive ways I've seen, of dealing with credos that don't fit modern society, is the notion that one may carry a heavy casserole dish to the table in ones home, but it may not be carried into another home, to share. In Jerusalem's old Jewish quarter, the Rabbis got together, and determined that a rope slung around the involved homes, would signify that they are the same home, and so casseroles can be carried out of one place (making it like a room) within the roped area, and into the other (room).

The thing that makes Judaism unique, especially orthodoxy, is that much time is spent by authorities, determining the smallest of issues which gives the impression that everything in life is important. At Yom Kippur one year, I attended a newer form of my religion that I knew very little about, called "Reconstructionist". It seemed even more strict than the orthodox form, in that the afternoon service was a discussion based on early writins, about whether defecation is work, and if little should be eaten the day before Yom Kippur (a day of fasting for 24 hours), so it may not be necessary to use the bathroom. I was flabergasted!

Since my personal belief is that our forefathers didn't know the damage that could be done when a person abstains from any fluid for 24 hours, particularly the elderly, so I drink water - not a lot, just enough to avoid dehydration. Diabetics, of course are excused from fasting, so there are ongoing changes determined by learned Rabbis. Nothing is written in stone any longer.

No one, no matter how naive about another's religion, has the right to criticise it. It's religion! Not an excuse to make others wrong.......