Shabbos/Religious Observances - page 16

As I begin the applications process for nursing schools, I have one huuuuge concern - my religious obligations. I am not permitted to work/attend school, etc. from sunset Friday nights until an hour... Read More

  1. by   Josh L.Ac.
    Quote from lamazeteacher
    No one, no matter how naive about another's religion, has the right to criticise it. It's religion! Not an excuse to make others wrong.......


    Forced female circumcision.
    Stoning of one's neighbors for working on the Sabbath.
    Beating or killing your kids is okay if god tells you to do it.
    It's okay to own slaves along as they are from a neighboring country.
    Sadness is d/t thetan particles left over when Xenu killed innocent people 65 million years ago.



    I was indoctrinated into the PC culture long ago, and one of the sacred mantras is that all religious / culture beliefs are equally valid and good people would never criticise another's beliefs.

    Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.
    Why, so someone can force their morality on others?

    But I get your point, many "religious" practices, including Christian ones in this country, are wrong and oppressive and nothing wrong with saying so.

    This thread primarily isn't about those extremes however. Where do people still stone for working on the Sabbath? Also, killing one's own kids because God tells you to is not a religious practice - it's primarily schizophrenia, so that's not a good example.
    Last edit by Tweety on Dec 8, '07
  3. by   Josh L.Ac.
    Quote from Tweety
    Why, so someone can force their morality on others?

    There is the catch - how do you point out the ethical flaws in religious and cultural beliefs without being blinded by your own?




    But as a secular humanist, I do think we can come up with something better.
  4. by   Tweety
    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    There is the catch - how do you point out the ethical flaws in religious and cultural beliefs without being blinded by your own?




    But as a secular humanist, I do think we can come up with something better.

    Is that always necessary? Can't we sometimes just keep quiet about our own beliefs and let others have theirs?

    I'm not talking about whether or not someone is oppressing another individual or causing harm.

    Otherwise, I agree. You're going to have to step on some toes to be heard and to institute change.
  5. by   Chloe'sinNYNow
    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    Forced female circumcision.
    Stoning of one's neighbors for working on the Sabbath.
    Beating or killing your kids is okay if god tells you to do it.
    It's okay to own slaves along as they are from a neighboring country.
    Sadness is d/t thetan particles left over when Xenu killed innocent people 65 million years ago.



    I was indoctrinated into the PC culture long ago, and one of the sacred mantras is that all religious / culture beliefs are equally valid and good people would never criticise another's beliefs.

    Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.
    Actually Josh, this is a perfect example of why fundamentalist extremism needs to fade away.
    Many Eastern religions are symbolic, not literal. For example "an eye for an eye" is not what many think as being vengeance sought for poking out an enemy's eye, but a commercial monetary trade. I'll give you this for that, but not actual physical act of battery.

    There's a whole system of trade that spoke in different terms than we understand it. One more reason for the diverse branches seen in Judaisim for example. The belief systems of how to interpret the testament. Which is also reasoning for why some keep kosher and some don't.

    One cannot blasphemize (is this a word?) all religions for one's own lack of understanding. That leads to bigger and scarier things.

    I try to look at it this way...it's called "faith" for a reason. If I believe so deeply about something, it is because I have faith in it.

    Then again, I don' t drive my faith around on my bumper, nor shove it in anyone's face or bring it into the workplace or anywhere I don' t think it belongs. It is what moves me; something else is bound to move someone else. I can respect that.

    Live and let live. There's a mantra for us. I think Lucy in The Peanuts used to espouse it.

    Chloe
  6. by   woody62
    I was born, raised and have practiced my faith as a Roman Catholic. I have also had the experience of worrying about my mortal soul because I was forced to say the Lord's Prayer, in a public school. And a good many people did not realize that the manner in which I say the Lord's Prayer is different from many Protestant faiths. And by doing so, I was committing a mortal sin. And I could not opt out, by not saying it, because my teacher would question me about why I was not saying the prayer with the rest of my class.

    I have also had the wonderful experience of caring for people whose religious beliefs were very different from mine, including Orthodox Jews. I learned very rapidly the reason for many of the small centers where the Orthodox gather for their services, they could only work so far before it became work. The biggest problem I experienced was with the old men and women who insisted, in spite of being hospitalized, of observing all their religious practices, including fasting. I soon learned which Rabbi to call and have him come in and explain the importance of meals while a person was sick. Or allowing us to do certain treatments.

    The individuals and churches I have a problem with are those that tell me my beliefs are wrong and that I am condemned to hell because I have not accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Or that I follow a man in Rome who is not appointed by God and therefore He cannot know what is correct for me or other Catholics. The most tolerant people I ever had an experience with is the Orthodox Jews. They do not make any assumptions about my religious beliefs or practices. They did not pass judgment on my Church, unlike so many of my fellow Christians. I would rather live with neighbors, such as Orthodox Jews or observant Muslims because they are both the least judgment of all religious groups I've ever experienced.

    Woody
  7. by   crissrn27
    Just wanted to say thanks for all the great info! This is a great discussion!
  8. by   DutchgirlRN
    Quote from tazzirn
    not trying to be a smartie pants here, but what do hospitals in israel do? i can pretty much guarantee that pts are not left unattended during the sabbath. i'm betting that work like caring for the sick would be excused.
    thanks tazzi! that's the way i see it too.

    p.s. i have never heard of nursing clinicals any other time than during the daylight hours mon thru fri. work, of course, is a whole different story.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    christmas in holland:
    in mid-november dutch television broadcasts the official arrival of st. nicholaas and his helper black piet live. coming by steamer from spain, each year they dock in the harbor of a different city or village. wearing a traditional bishop's robes, sinterklaas rides into town on a white horse to be greeted by the mayor. in the weeks before st. nicholaas day, december 5th, sinterklaas goes around the country to determine if the children have behaved. he and his black piet helpers visit children in schools, hospitals, department stores, and even at home. the bakeries make speculaas, a molded spice cookie of the saint. during this time children put out their wooden shoes with wish-lists and a carrot or maybe a saucer of water, for the horse. when st. nicholaas comes by children find their initials made of chocolate, candy treats, and little gifts in their shoes.
    the dutch celebrate sinterklaas on december 5th with family parties which is when gifts are exchanged. the dutch feast of saint nicholaas is about giving, for "it is in giving that we receive." in holland there are two christmas days, december 25th and 26th. both are celebrated as a quiet holiday with family and friends.
  9. by   lamazeteacher
    Quote from Tweety
    Why, so someone can force their morality on others?

    But I get your point, many "religious" practices, including Christian ones in this country, are wrong and oppressive and nothing wrong with saying so.

    This thread primarily isn't about those extremes however. Where do people still stone for working on the Sabbath? Also, killing one's own kids because God tells you to is not a religious practice - it's primarily schizophrenia, so that's not a good example.
    __________________________________________________ _________

    Before the "intifada" (the stoning of Jews by Palestinians) in Israel, in 1985, I'm sad to say that Jews stoned others who may or may nor have been Jewish, for driving on shabbos (see earlier comment). To resolve that, the police (again with the ropes), closed off large areas from Friday night until Saturday night, to prevent driving there.

    I think Josh was referring to ancient Abraham's attempt to sacrifice his son Isaac according to G-d's order, which he then heard G-d recant, in the nick of time. It was thought to be a test of Abraham's allegiance to G-d. Personally, I can't conceive of so cruel a G-d, so I think maybe Abraham's hearing wasn't so good, and for a nano second, he almost did the unthinkable, but came to his senses (no pun intended) in time.

    Rabbis have spent considerable time debating that act, without coming to the conclusion that maybe G-d didn't say it...........After all, nobody else heard it............ I hope no one will think I'm sacreligious saying that, but I think it's high time we looked at the possibility of error After all, the Bible was written by men who derived their information from other men, in what could be called the "whisper game".

    By the way, in Toronto, the official "blue nose" place in Canada, Jews were allowed to sell bagels in the downtown Jewish area on Sunday mornings in the 1940s, (before commerce was allowed 7 days a week) They didn't work Saturdays, so it was an effort to be fair. (Believe me it took a lot of lawyers to persuade the city government to allow it.)
  10. by   lamazeteacher
    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    Forced female circumcision.
    Stoning of one's neighbors for working on the Sabbath.
    Beating or killing your kids is okay if god tells you to do it.
    It's okay to own slaves along as they are from a neighboring country.
    Sadness is d/t thetan particles left over when Xenu killed innocent people 65 million years ago.
    I was indoctrinated into the PC culture long ago, and one of the sacred mantras is that all religious / culture beliefs are equally valid and good people would never criticise another's beliefs.
    Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.
    Dear Josh:
    Polite people don't criticise others' beliefs. What has the PC got to do with that? Taking away religious beliefs, would remove many peoples' security.
    Culture and religion are not the same. Religion can create a culture of people who think similarly. Culture, according to the Random House Dictionary, is "a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period" and "the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to the next" - like art .
    I've never read anything that described the practice of circumcising females as set by religious beliefs - rather it's a nation's way of controlling women. It's the ritual of a culture. Remember the woman (I can't think of her name now) who insisted upon having that procedure done here before she could return and face the women in her country again? I cry when I think of her......
    Male circumcision, however, is part of Jewish ritual based on hygienic beliefs. "Smegma", that creamy substance that accumulates behind the foreskin, was thought (and some medical experts here still think) to have causal elements of disease. Uncircumcised men in our culture think their sensations while having intercourse are greater than those of circumcised men - but how to measure that?
    There is a "Book of Laws" for Jews that is observed most by orthodoxy, that involves many hygienic aspects of life, as well as manners, responsibilities, and most of the things of which life is composed. It's the guiding force behind the "Micvah", a ceremonial pool of water used to cleanse women after their menstrual periods (but they must thoroughly shower before going into that pool). Until her visit there, a woman is considered "unclean" from the first day of each period, and must sleep in a room that she doesn't share with her husband, hence Anita Diamond's book "Red Tent". It's also a social happening for women, who don't seem to think being unclean is a "putdown". It sure advertises who's pregnant!
    Faye Kellerman writes mysteries in which she describes orthodox means of observing Judaism. I love reading them, because she makes it seem so doable. Her husband Jonathon Kellerman is a psychologist who writes psychological thrillers. I'm sure that they don't write on Shabbos.
    I'd hate to think of any society without the wholeness and bonding that religion creates. Granted, terrible things have been done in the name of religion (e.g. the inquisition and Nazi concentration camps, wars, annihilation), and power has been the cause of that. Let's hope instead that misuse of power will "fade into oblivion".
    If power was perceived as a gift granted for good deeds, and removed peacefully, with self recognition if it was abused, harmony would reign among those of all beliefs.
  11. by   sharona97
    Quote from earle58
    after reading this thread, i watched my favorite movie, "fiddler on the roof".

    and now i'm singing (very, very loud, throughout the house), ":Melody:to life! to life! l'achaim (sp)...l'achaim, l'achaim, to life! life has a way of...:Melody:"

    i don't mind sharing w/you:
    if i was ever to pursue any one religion, it would definitely be Judaism.
    just from my upbringing, i have embraced it to be one of the most honorable ways of living.
    my very, very, very, VERY orthodox cousin still calls me, insisting that i am a Jew, whether i accept or not, because "that is who you are".
    after yrs of her telling me this, i'm starting to appreciate what she means.
    she's married to a Rabbi...the kind that wears the long beard and the hat.

    i want to watch "fiddler" again.
    thanks for letting me swoon.

    leslie
    It's nice to see you so happy Leslie. Something to relish in for yourself and your family.
  12. by   sharona97
    I just finished reading every post on this wonderful thread and want to thank all for the videos, teachings,explanations and inspirations each has had or thought.

    I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I didn't understand all the "protocols" (for lack of a better or correct word) or even understand the reasons for these at times.

    All I knew and felt was in my heart and soul I had the most powerful feeling for helping others and caring about others, wether they were "sinners" or not. I felt loved and trusted in my being and behaved and prayed on a one to one basis with one who I believed led me to this very private and personal place inside of me.

    I have an even greater conviction to continue this through prayer and practice. I believe in the virtues I have learned through my faith and I practice the best I can to the beautitides I also learned by reading the bible.

    I have come to believe it is important to try to understand all handed to me ,through good, bad,or evil. I have also believed I have sinned by judging others and have said many prayers for forgiveness.

    Isn't it all about love anyway? To have the desire to care for our sick and needy patients and felllow humans in the best way we know how seems to me to be the important task at hand no matter how it is done. As long as it woks and keeps us alive with the spirit of goodness.

    Thank you to the OP for starting this thread that has enlightened me and given me faith again in our diverse beliefs, we truly do care about one another. It's a beautiful thing.

    Sharona
    Last edit by sharona97 on Dec 13, '07 : Reason: me
  13. by   Chloe'sinNYNow
    [QUOTE=lamazeteacher;2537046]
    Male circumcision, however, is part of Jewish ritual based on hygienic beliefs. "Smegma", that creamy substance that accumulates behind the foreskin, was thought (and some medical experts here still think) to have causal elements of disease. Uncircumcised men in our culture think their sensations while having intercourse are greater than those of circumcised men - but how to measure that?
    There is a "Book of Laws" for Jews that is observed most by orthodoxy, that involves many hygienic aspects of life, as well as manners, responsibilities, and most of the things of which life is composed. It's the guiding force behind the "Micvah", a ceremonial pool of water used to cleanse women after their menstrual periods (but they must thoroughly shower before going into that pool). Until her visit there, a woman is considered "unclean" from the first day of each period, and must sleep in a room that she doesn't share with her husband, hence Anita Diamond's book "Red Tent". It's also a social happening for women, who don't seem to think being unclean is a "putdown". It sure advertises who's pregnant!
    Faye Kellerman writes mysteries in which she describes orthodox means of observing Judaism. I love reading them, because she makes it seem so doable. QUOTE]


    So sorry to interject after reading the wonderful way you approach a sensitive topic, but Male circumcision in Judaism is NOT based on hygiene. This is a huge major misconception that bears explanation because of the now bigger controversy over the whole hygiene to cirucumcise or not to circumcise debate.

    In Judaism, male circumcision is the mitzvah performed on all male babies on their 8th day of life as Abraham made his covenant to G-d. Today, by performing the act circumcision, Jews perpetuate the covenant and make their children a part of that eternal promise. (this link puts it into perspective better than I can http://www.aish.com/literacy/ It's simple to understand, yet detailed enough for our scientific nursing minds to grasp)

    I read the Red Tent years ago. Please remember, it is fiction.
    The Mikvah is a hugely revered and important ceremonial sitethat is for more than just "cleaning" a woman after she's done menstruating.

    Per http://www.essene.com/B'nai-Amen/MysticalImmersion.htm a most intriguing and fascinating and according to my own Judaic studies, a quite accurate account of Mikvahs. It speaks in a free flowing (couldn't resist!) explanation, using citations from scriptures, hx, and comparative religions. It's very well written and can speak much more profoundly than I. But to site from it on 2 counts mentioned herein:

    1) "The building of the mikveh was so important in ancient times it was said to take precedence over the construction of a synagogue."
    2) "According to non-Essene Jewish law there are three basic areas where immersion in the mikveh is required"...(and I paraphrase here)...
    a) immersion required for when both men and women convert to Judaism
    b) immersion required after a woman has her monthly period
    c) immersion required required for pots and eating utensils manufactured by a non-Jew

    And additionally:
    "It is customary to be immersed in the mikveh before Yom Kippur as a sign of purity and repentance and before the Sabbath in order to sensitize oneself to the holiness of the day. "

    Pretty cool stuff, huh?

    Chloe (Jewish and still learning after all these years)
    Last edit by Chloe'sinNYNow on Dec 15, '07 : Reason: needed to highlight a few things; and spelling too

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