JUST SAY NO TO MNM - page 3

Million Nurse March? Give me a break. uh yea, like I want to march to Washington like a bunch of whiney minorities to ask the government to step into my life a little more. Sounds to me like... Read More

  1. by   Doc
    Just a couple of thoughts: if we take the approach "this is the way things are going to be from now on and if not, we quit", we will lose the public's support. School teachers have been down this path many times. I am not anti-striking or anti-lobbying by any means - this approach has had success, but very limited success.

    Secondly, what is the problem with effecting change through legislation? As some of the other posters here and in other topics have pointed out, it is us who are accountable when some disaster happens, and as the conditions in so many facilities are at such an abismal standard, a disaster is literally waiting to happen! Legislation is what defines our minimum pay, and it is legislation that defines the minimum nurse-patient ratios, maximum hours a nurse is allowed to work, and other conditions. Put simply, legislation sets a state or national standard for conditions that affect patient safety and nurses conditions. Then if your employer disregards that legislation they are committing an offence, and if you find yourself in a malpractice suit or being reported to your registration board or the health complaints commission, you have a concrete defence that your patient ended up in whatever situation because your employer did not follow the legislation which is written in black and white, and your licence, dignity, reputation and life savings remain intact.

    Doc

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    http://www.GreatNurse.com/
  2. by   rncountry
    wildtime you don't get it and you aren't going to get it. The MNM invites ALL to participate. There are many deep issues with the ANA, CNA and unions that represent nurses. The politics are deep seated and sometimes ugly. The MNM is not an ANA clone, we are asking for things that the ANA is not. Do your research! There are many nurses out there that feel the ANA is too moderate and compromising towards corporate mentality, witness the vote for disaffiliation in Massachusetts yesterday where 80% voted to disaffliate from the ANA. There are other nurses that are pro-union, others that are anti-union, those that believe the CNA is right on target, others that feel they are too radical. There are progressive specific state ANA associations such as New York and then theres states like Texas and Arizonia. What is happening now is very piecemeal, and the goal of the MNM is to unite as much as possible all the different voices. I have pointed out to you once that the word million voices is in our vision statement. That is where that comes from.
    The idea of each nurse on their own standing up and saying I am not going to take it anymore has not been effective. No nurse has been terminated or blackballed for doing what you are proposing? Many states do not even have whistleblower protections for nurses that do stand up for themselves, there are things that individual nurses can do that promote certain things, but we have to work with a collective. The idea that we can accomplish this without legislation sounds good in theory but just asking nurses who have little or no protections to stand up there and put their livlihood at risk by saying have had enough!has a pretty tinny ring to it.
    Again I will ask you to give some specifics as to how to accomplish what you are saying. I don't mean reposting the wage thing you have. But a concrete plan that each nurse that chooses can follow. I ask you what are you doing for your profession, you yourself, specifically to accomplish what you seek? As far as a me mentality society, guess thats in the eye of the beholder. Just like any society there is the good, bad and the ugly. Sometimes as nurses, same with cops, we see much more of the ugly. We see the trauma patients that have had the snot kicked out of them for assine reasons, any nurse in the ER can tell you stories of people who throw a fit about having to wait, regardless of rather their injury or whatever is minor. You see to you it is minor, to the doc it is minor because you are trained to recognize that. To the patient however it is not minor. I don't care who you are, anyone that has had to sit in the ER for 6 hours while they are in pain is not a happy camper.
    You don't like the ANA, you don't like the CNA, you don't like the MNM and I'm guessing here but you probably don't like unions either. What do you like? Oh, I forgot, nurses standing up for themselves, but wait, only male nurses know how to do that effectively because female nurses won't do it. Sure, thats why I lost a job and didn't work for 15 months. Because I kept my mouth shut. So we have narrowed the field of what you think is effective even further, the ANA won't work, the CNA won't work, the MNM won't work, males need to teach females to stand up for themselves, have I missed anything? We all know that legislation doesn't do a thing. It didn't work to get women the vote, it didn't work to stop children working in sweatshops, it didn't work for blacks being kept from voting or being swung from trees, it didn't work to establish working hours for laborers, and it sure as hell won't work for nurses.
    Maybe being an anarchist will work? That surely will get the public educated and on our side, why didn't I think of that? I'll go to work dressed in black, smash a few windows, declare myself free of any interference by the gov't and corporate both, change into scrubs and continue taking care of my patients. Now thats taking control and standing up for myself don't you think?
  3. by   iamme457
    This is fun.
    May I add some mud and put rope around it and sell tickets?
    Deanna
  4. by   buck227
    Ok, let me spell this out a bit. What if we had a federal law stating that a nurse can only have 2 critical patients under his/her care (just as an example). Then what happens when there just aren't any more nurses available? What happens if someone calls in sick? or quits? Do they turf the patient to another facility? Do they call an agency? What if the agency can't get anyone? Do they close the facility? and what then? So the hospital is required to have more nurses on staf related to the number of beds. This cuts into the profits and either cuts wadges or causes the hospital to go bankrupt. The way I see it, legislation as to nurse patient ratios or as to staffing minimums will help no one. It will only make things more complicated. The work load is not going to decrease.

    The only way to solve the problem is to allow free enterprise to work it out. For example, a hospital wants to provide the best care in it's market. It wants to add a cardiology program or any other special profit making program. It has to have trained nurses to run the program and make the patients want to come to their hospital. So it goes out of it's way to make the work place attractive by hiring more nurses and ancillary personel (nursing assistants etc.), It raises the pay and benefits, adds a nice cafeteria, lets the nurses choose their own schedule, adds a day care dept, increases it's shift diff, offers more matching on its 401k, adds free parking, offers more education and certifications, builds it's reputation, and it keeps it's nurses. Thats why my aurgument is to not stay in a place where you are not happy. Many have criticised me because of that view because they say they can't leave because of their personal dynamics. I understand that but if the majority of us let the big corporations know we are unhappy by moving around, they will catch on. It is cheaper to keep the same people on the payroll than to train new ones every year or so. And in a competitive health care market (like what is found in all the major cities in the U.S.) They are going to have to make things more attractive.

    The fact is, everytime there has been legislation that has tampered with the free market system it has raised prices or cost jobs to those involved. I could name a dozen examples.

    So I beg you please PLEASE pay very close attention to those who want federal mandates that govern your work practice. It may appear to be giving you more when actually it is robbing you of your freedom.

    Another big example is this, there is a nursing shortage because the field is very unattractive to alot of people. The shortage is causing alot of problems but I promise you, if there was no shortage, our wages and benefits would be far worse than they are now. My base pay has risen 26% in the five years I have been an RN. That has nothing to do with rise in cost of living. It is because they have to make it attractive for us to continue working.

    Alot of my posts are pro union. Actually I hate the word union because in a union you send your money to a bunch of lawyers out of state who come help you only when you really need it and stir up a whole lot of **** in the process. I like to use the word collective bargoning. We need to influence the increase in the quality of our working conditions as a group. The market will play to us if we make it. It always works that way.

    buck
  5. by   Q.
    Buck that is very interesting and enlightening. I am sort of against unions in a odd way - I believe they had thier place but in the past 10 years, haven't done squat that I know of. We have a small union here in my area, and as I stated, has done squat. What did happen was the nurses walked out of their unit and would not return until things improved; sadly to say the hospital chose to close that unit down rather than bargain with the staff.
    I always thought your idea of free enterprise would work, but also played around with the idea of nurses as contractors, rather than employees of the hospital - somewhat like physicians. Perhaps it would give us a bit more leway to bargain individually as well. Just a thought.
  6. by   Charles S. Smith, RN, MS
    Originally posted by Susy K:
    Buck that is very interesting and enlightening. I am sort of against unions in a odd way - I believe they had thier place but in the past 10 years, haven't done squat that I know of. We have a small union here in my area, and as I stated, has done squat. What did happen was the nurses walked out of their unit and would not return until things improved; sadly to say the hospital chose to close that unit down rather than bargain with the staff.
    I always thought your idea of free enterprise would work, but also played around with the idea of nurses as contractors, rather than employees of the hospital - somewhat like physicians. Perhaps it would give us a bit more leway to bargain individually as well. Just a thought.
    Suzy, Buck..the free enterprise system is alive and well, at least in my area. IHCR, the company I founded, does exactly what you are discussing. We are entrepreneurs, contractors, educators, LNCs, coaches and have niched ourselves quite nicely in the marketplace. Check out our homepage (found under the profile) and email me directly if you want to learn how to turn your nursing career into a profitable and satisfying adventure.
    chas
  7. by   rncountry
    wildtime, I find you antagonisic and chavenistic, however I will say that I understand and hear what you are saying. I simply wish you would do what you are trying to do without being antagonistic about it. I'm sorry that you find what I write boring, or as a story, it is the way I communicate when I am trying to show why I believe what I believe. The point about the federal government is well taken though. How do we have something that is nurses taking care of business per se ourselves. I havent' quite figured that out yet, but I am thinking on it. I am also putting out feelers to others that may have ideas. Collective heads thinking as individuals as to how to do things that will help solve things through nurses by nurses. Without an association or the gov't. Any ideas that you have are welcome.
  8. by   Mijourney
    Hi. While I think it is important to debate the merits of both, does it have to be the government vs. private industry? Is either entity in and of itself a pancea for the troubles of this country (I'm speaking of the US)? Shouldn't what we really be after is holding people from both groups responsible and accountable for doing what's right? There are nurses who have worked for both government and private hospitals and can no doubt write about horror stories from both. I think a balanced approach to working with private industry and government is needed. Use the strongest points from each. I do feel that if you invest all your eggs in one basket, you need a backup.
  9. by   buck227
    Now thats funny
    Originally posted by wildtime88:
    jammee457, As long as I can wear a thong and you have an ice cold beer waiting for me between rounds, then sure.
  10. by   Q.
    This kind of paints a disturbing picture for me - although since I don't know what Wildtime looks like, it could actually be a good picture.

    Originally posted by wildtime88:
    jammee457, As long as I can wear a thong and you have an ice cold beer waiting for me between rounds, then sure.
  11. by   postaledde
    Let's look at the math and the current way things are being done.A hospital or nursing home complains that they don't have enough money to give anyone a raise or hire more staff.However,they use agency nurses to fill the holes 40 hours a week.Ok, the agency charges the facility $50 an hour at a rate of $2,000 for the week. If I was to hire 2 nurses at $20 an hour for that same 40 hours I would only spend $1600. I have given you an extra staff member decreasing your work load which makes you want to stay.I have given you a fair wage and saved the facility $400. This can be repeated for every agency person that is used.This also holds true for LPN's and CNA's.There is always a savings for the the facility and a benefit to the staffing levels.
  12. by   postaledde
    ok, Buck so your ready to give up nursing.Your going to be replaced by a PCT (patient care technician) at less than half the rate and about 1/3 of the knowledge.You obviously work in a hospital setting and have the mentality of an ostrich.You have your head buried firmly in the sand.When you transfer patients out of the hospital to sub-acute rehab centers that have one nurse for 30 patients and 4 CNA's that your responsible for you would want a change.Why are all of these nursing homes around the country being sued.Substandard care!! Do you think the employee's at these facilties care any less. NO! they don't, they are extrememly understaffed but cry that were operating within the minimum standards set by our government.People with your mentality need to end up in a nursing home for your last days on life so that you can experience laying in your own mess waiting for someone who has 10 other people to change before they get to you.Due to the lack of staff and you not being changed in a timely fashion you end up with bedsores you can put your fist in.Then you can reflect back.Don't say where's my nurse, say I ASKED FOR THIS! Thank You God for showing me my ignorance!!!!!
  13. by   buck227
    Postal,
    I find your rebuttal amusing and entertaining. I have a great sympathy for Nursing home staff. My girlfriend left the hospital not long ago to be house supervisor at a nursing home and she found it to be very overbearing. It is so sad that those people don't recieve the care they are due. It is extremly hard work working in a long term care facility and I have the utmost respect for those who do that job. It is a thankless task and to be done well, requires a true professional.

    Basically our disagreement boils down to a simple difference in the way we believe government should work. Many Americans make the same mistake especially in this time. They forget the days in this world of national socialism and totalitarian rule. If you study history and you believe in the constitution of the United States you will learn that government intervention is very dangerous. More laws and legislation solve nothing. They complicate the system and take away freedom with every stroke of the pen.

    Many misunderstand what I mean by the quiting tactic. I have explained it over and over and it is very simple. The businesses that provide care in this country have to provide some sort of minimum standard that is excepted by the people. If that standard falls below an exceptable level, no one will patronize that institution anymore and they will go out of business. Someone else will open up another facility that will attempt to provide that minimum standard of acceptable care. This is called free enterprise and it works as a system. It is not a perfect system, but it is the best system tested by history and can be related to any business, not just healthcare.

    There is no excuse in the United States for saying you are trapped in a position of employment. There is no indentered servatude here. There is no slavery. Although many will argue that they can't leave their current position because of certain reasons, the word "can"t" just isn't true. They really mean that they "can't" because they are not willing to move or they "can't" because they are not willing to accept a pay cut or what ever.

    They CAN'T replace RNs with patient care assistants. They can try for a short period, but eventually the public just won't accept that level of care and it will fail. There has to be RNs and LPNs in the system just like there has to be MDs.

    I no longer work in a hospital setting. I have for many years, but I now work outside of the system. As for your attack on my mental capacity, it shows your inability to articulate an aurgument without resorting to personal attack. It robs you of your credability as a professional and makes you look like a dumbass, so don't do that in the future if you wish people to pay attention to what you are saying. You make a snap judgement as to my mentality and you have no idea of who I am or what my mentality is so basically I am telling you to **** off.

    ok, Buck so your ready to give up nursing.Your going to be replaced by a PCT (patient care technician) at less than half the rate and about 1/3 of the knowledge.You obviously work in a hospital setting and have the mentality of an ostrich.You have your head buried firmly in the sand.When you transfer patients out of the hospital to sub-acute rehab centers that have one nurse for 30 patients and 4 CNA's that your responsible for you would want a change.Why are all of these nursing homes around the country being sued.Substandard care!! Do you think the employee's at these facilties care any less. NO! they don't, they are extrememly understaffed but cry that were operating within the minimum standards set by our government.People with your mentality need to end up in a nursing home for your last days on life so that you can experience laying in your own mess waiting for someone who has 10 other people to change before they get to you.Due to the lack of staff and you not being changed in a timely fashion you end up with bedsores you can put your fist in.Then you can reflect back.Don't say where's my nurse, say I ASKED FOR THIS! Thank You God for showing me my ignorance!!!!![/QUOTE]


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