Jewish patients: End of Life practices

Girlygirl69 · Sep 10, 2011

Here we go, thanks to everyone for giving me valuable info. Its easier to care for patients when you understand where they're coming from. Like I learned that a woman should not care for a male patient. I would have never known that if I didn't ask. On my unit when we have a rabbi on our ICU we try our hardest to give him a male RN. I know that every Jew is different. I've been nervous to to ask the rabbi questions because I usually see him during a bad time and I sometimes feel it's an inappropriate time to be asking questions

Girlygirl69 · Sep 10, 2011

I was not offended by this question, just a little saddened by the generalization. I have worked in some Christian-based hospitals and have tried to NOT make any judgements based on religion.
Each and every family must come to terms with their own decisions about EOL.
Religion plays only a PART of this decision.

Why would you be saddened by generalizations? Please no pity party needed. I was clear in my statement that this is my experience where I work and my question is what's the rule on EOL care and what's normal practice. I haven't judged and generalized a group of people. It's unfortunate if you feel that way. I'm saddened

Girlygirl69 · Sep 10, 2011

OP,
You say that you aren't generalizing, but I beg to differ. Based on the responses thus far, I venture to say that you haven't done your homework. I am not Jewish, but if I were, I think that I would be a little bit offended by your post.

Offended.......okayyyyy

Girlygirl69 · Sep 10, 2011

Jewish people vary from being atheist to Orthodox and several stations in between.
I don't know why your experience has been what is has, but I think you are wise to be curious and want to learn. You might want to talk with various rabbis for their knowledge. Just find local Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Progressive, Messianic (Jews for Jesus, for example), Hasidic and any other categories of Jews and ask for an appointment with the rabbis of these groups.
Perhaps they will be a little wary at first, but I think most will be delighted to explain, inform, and dialogue with you. Some might invite you to services or congregational activities so you can meet more Jewish people and get wider views.
Bless you for being interested in learning all that you can. I'm not sure that you can necessarily say that end of life decisions are determined by religion. Maybe there are other factors at work - relationships, guilt, fear of being widowed or orphaned, etc.
BTW, I know Jews who are Buddhist, atheist, Orthodox, Conservative, Hasidic, and Reform. Some definitely do not believe in an afterlife or even in God. Others observe Kashruth (keeping Kosher) and many other laws and rituals and they do believe in Heaven and Hell and in being inscribed in the Book of Life or not on Rosh ha Shana and Yom Kippur, which are coming up very soon.

That was so informative. Thanks a bundle.

mama_d, BSN, RN · Sep 10, 2011

Pretty much the only consistent thing I've seen in years of bedside care that relates to religion is that Jehovah's Witness pts don't get bllod products. And all our nuns and priests have DNR/medical management (the equivalent of no heroic measures), and ALWAYS have their directives/POA papers on hand. We've got several sisterhoods who place their members in the ALF and SNF on our campus, so we get a lot of nuns. :)

I don't think there's anything wrong with the question you raised, BTW. Don't we take classes in school that are geared specifically towards what certain religious or ethnic groups "generally" do?

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Sep 10, 2011

girlygirl69;5614651]here [/b]we go, thanks to everyone for giving me valuable info. its easier to care for patients when you understand where they're coming from. like i learned that a woman should not care for a male patient. i would have never known that if i didn't ask. on my unit when we have a rabbi on our icu we try our hardest to give him a male rn. i know that every jew is different. i've been nervous to to ask the rabbi questions because i usually see him during a bad time and i sometimes feel it's an inappropriate time to be asking questions

i have never come across this before, and we have a very large jewish community in my city. is this an orthodox preference or no? i've only been a nurse for 15 years, but i've never heard of this being the case.

bewitched · Sep 10, 2011

It's more to the effect that an unrelated and unmarried man and woman shouldn't be alone in one another's presence, lest it lead to inappropriate conduct.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/the-laws-of-yichud/12.htm

Edit: And in case someone just skims the page--note that while the page mostly refers to women seeing male doctors/nurses/techs, etc, it also states that the same rules apply for men seeing women doctors/nurse/techs etc. Of course, this is from an Orthodox Jewish perspective and it's hard to say to what degree it would apply to Conservative Jews, and I doubt Reform Jews and non-religious Jews would have ever even heard of Yichud, let alone practice it (like shomer negiah and tzniut, yichud is a relatively obscure practice outside of Orthodoxy). Like everything, it varies among Jews.

Edit2: Here is another link from Chabad, a major spiritual/outreach sort of branch of Orthodox Judaism, explaining end of life issues from a religiously-Jewish perspective: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/287016/jewish/Soul-Talk.htm (make sure you click the next button at the bottom of each page, it's longer than it looks and goes into much helpful detail)

mazy · Sep 10, 2011

This is not meant to be offensive but a serious question. Not to generalize, but in my experience, why do Jewish families agree to all and any extreme measures to preserve life even in the face of obvious suffering of the patient. A coworker told me it's because they don't believe in heaven and earth is all there is, but I did research and that's incorrect. I just want to know because I've never had a devout Jewish patient who was made a DNR.
Okay guys now blast me for being ignorant....'Go

I'm Jewish and not offended by the question, although a little put off by your co-worker's comment, given that she sounded very sure of herself and at the same time, incorrect. That is an attitude that comes up a lot and gives Jews a considerable amount of grief.

So I'm glad that you are interested in doing some research on your own. My experience is that the Jewish experience of EOL is as consistent as that of any other faith, which is to say, unpredictable in terms of the way rules are interpreted and define behavior, especially since there are so many types of Judaism and that death can be such a powerful experience.

Most Rabbis are open to discussion about the faith to others who are genuinely interested. I'm sure that if you can catch up with them at a quiet moment, they will be happy to talk to you about these questions.

bewitched · Sep 10, 2011

Most Rabbis are open to discussion about the faith to others who are genuinely interested. I'm sure that if you can catch up with them at a quiet moment, they will be happy to talk to you about these questions.

Along this line, you might also consider emailing rabbis from different denominations on this topic.

However I will caution you about "Messianic" Judaism (aka Jews For Jesus) suggested earlier in this thread. I don't know what they believe about EOL issues, but no Jewish demonination (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist) recognizes Jews for Jesus as a religiously Jewish organization. The general consensus among Jews is that Messianic Judaism attempts to convert born Jews to what is essentially Christianity, by telling them that Jesus is the fulfillment of their Jewish faith. Here is more about Messianic Judaism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

According to the Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform):

"For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, she is clearly a Christian."

mazy · Sep 10, 2011

Along this line, you might also consider emailing rabbis from different denominations on this topic.
However I will caution you about "Messianic" Judaism (aka Jews For Jesus) suggested earlier in this thread. I don't know what they believe about EOL issues, but no Jewish demonination (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist) recognizes Jews for Jesus as a religiously Jewish organization. The general consensus among Jews is that Messianic Judaism attempts to convert born Jews to what is essentially Christianity, by telling them that Jesus is the fulfillment of their Jewish faith. Here is more about Messianic Judaism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
According to the Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform):
"For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, she is clearly a Christian."

This. Thanks for pointing this out.

OhioCCRN, MSN, NP · Sep 10, 2011

1. OP was not making a judgment, he/she was making an observation from experience.

2. As a previous poster noted, there always has to be some highly offended individuals in every discussion.

3. OP this is the time to do some research into EOL issues with different cultures to foster a deeper understanding of the variations.

Sanuk · Sep 10, 2011

With regard to the women taking care of men comment, it actually is an Orthodox practice. As a (reform) Jew, I know that women can't touch men during "that time" and after until they have taken a ritual bath. Since it would be impossible, and offensive, to ask the nurse if she is "clean" they would just prefer to avoid it. Like all things that are prohibited, these requirements are usually waived if it is medically necessary. For instance, you aren't supposed to drive or engage in commerce on the Sabbath, but if it's a medical emergency it is considered acceptable.

Also, Girlygirl, I'm not offended by your question. I think it is good to be inquisitive. What bothers me is when people make generalizations and spread them on because they didn't seek answers.