"The Healthcare Crisis" - page 2

I turned on the news this morning and yet another story about the impending doom of the "healthcare crisis." Obviously, the current system has some problems. For example, the millions of illegal... Read More

  1. by   avery
    [QUOTE=TriageRN_34]Just a reminder that not all states have a sales tax..I live in one of them!
    And sales tax is not the same as paying both federal tax and social security tax either!
  2. by   piper_for_hire
    All we really have here is the usual problem:

    1) our healthcare system is largely "for-profit"
    2) ethics are constantly getting in the way
    3) lawsuits

    I'm still not convinced that socialized healthcare would work, given the federal govt's difficulty with things in general. However, the existing for-profit models do not include the "low-profit" scenarios that are driven by ethical dilemmas - such as ERs caring for people with no insurance and illegal immigrants needing care. Lets face it, you can call these people what you like but they're still people and we will care for them if it is needed. We are compelled to do it because it's the right thing to do. I'm not an economist, but I have to think that a model that would include the realities of illegal immigration and 40+ million americans without health insurance would work better than the existing model that does not include them for fear of "encouraging" more of them. Oh please! Like anyone wants to be uninsured or illegal. Those folks are in the great minority.

    I mentioned lawsuits only because I see many "cover your butt" type tests being done every day that are unneccesary. Surely some greenbacks can be saved if healthcare providers weren't so afraid of the potential lawsuit.

    Thanks for reading,
    -S
  3. by   avery
    Quote from piper_for_hire
    All we really have here is the usual problem:

    1) our healthcare system is largely "for-profit"
    2) ethics are constantly getting in the way
    3) lawsuits

    I'm still not convinced that socialized healthcare would work, given the federal govt's difficulty with things in general. However, the existing for-profit models do not include the "low-profit" scenarios that are driven by ethical dilemmas - such as ERs caring for people with no insurance and illegal immigrants needing care. Lets face it, you can call these people what you like but they're still people and we will care for them if it is needed. We are compelled to do it because it's the right thing to do. I'm not an economist, but I have to think that a model that would include the realities of illegal immigration and 40+ million americans without health insurance would work better than the existing model that does not include them for fear of "encouraging" more of them. Oh please! Like anyone wants to be uninsured or illegal. Those folks are in the great minority.

    I mentioned lawsuits only because I see many "cover your butt" type tests being done every day that are unneccesary. Surely some greenbacks can be saved if healthcare providers weren't so afraid of the potential lawsuit.

    Thanks for reading,
    -S
    I agree with your general ideas. I believe that most people who are for "socialized medicine" do not understand that with that comes a whole nother set of rules. People in such systems die waiting for many simple procedures and surgeries that we currently perform everyday. They are long waits for everything and as one nurse I met from England stated, "Nurses do not make any money." Granted no one becomes a nurse to make money and I am really ok with what I currently am making but would not be satisfied with any less, especially for the risks and responsibility that we carry.
    Avery
  4. by   StNeotser
    This is an interesting article;

    http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

    And an excerpt;


    A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses (12). Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.

    I think the problem is, our healthcare providers just need to be made a little more ethical.

    There is a thread on allnurses right now about how much money drug reps can make. Really, does someone need to make $200,000 for selling drugs? That isn't anything to do with R&D, just selling and marketing.

    Here are United Healthcares profits for all to see. It's a PDF, go to page 20.

    http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/inv...6/UNH_AR05.pdf

    They certainly feel they owe something to their shareholders.
  5. by   cabkrun
    Quote from avery
    I agree with your general ideas. I believe that most people who are for "socialized medicine" do not understand that with that comes a whole nother set of rules. People in such systems die waiting for many simple procedures and surgeries that we currently perform everyday. They are long waits for everything and as one nurse I met from England stated, "Nurses do not make any money." Granted no one becomes a nurse to make money and I am really ok with what I currently am making but would not be satisfied with any less, especially for the risks and responsibility that we carry.
    Avery

    The whole idea that "people die waiting for many simple procedures..." is a myth. Granted, "socialized medicine" is not perfect, but our so called system surely isn't either. People in this country wait for procedures as well. Many doctors are leaving the profession because "every patient that walks thru their door is a potential lawsuit". My husbands father lives in England, and he has received perfectly fine care there, and he has heart disease. He surely isn't running over to the US for care, which he very well could since he is dual citizenship. I know people in the US waiting months for an MRI. There may be waits in places like London for voluntary type issues, but it's rare for someone with a life threatening illness to die waiting over there. In reality, we have "socialized medicine". It's called the Emergency Room, and if you don't think that is an expensive way to provide health care, oh boy. Canada has both a socialized system to cover everyone, and people have the option to purchase additional private insurance if they don't feel satisfied, and of course if they can afford it. I would rather see people in this country insured, versus running around sick and diseased and unable to do anything about it. Talk about a Public Health Crisis. I find it a bit smug to assume we are so much better in the US. You are right that the US does pay it's nurses better than most countries, and it's probably why there is migration to this country of foreign nurses. Don't know the answer to that one.
  6. by   balutpinoysabutuan
    SHAME ON THOSE WHO ABUSES THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!:angryfire
  7. by   piper_for_hire
    Quote from StNeotser
    There is a thread on allnurses right now about how much money drug reps can make. Really, does someone need to make $200,000 for selling drugs? That isn't anything to do with R&D, just selling and marketing.
    Yes! Absolutely they should make $200K or more. Without sales a company can't make mad profits, which is the purpose of any company. After all, without profits an company can't exist. Sales is a king of the hill type job. If you don't do will, there is someone eager to take your $200K territory for $175K and so on. Nurses don't demand high salaries so nobody is really that eager to take our jobs. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is .... for now. I believe that eventually nurses will stop working for low wages. Someday.

    -S
  8. by   piper_for_hire
    Quote from balutpinoysabutuan
    SHAME ON THOSE WHO ABUSES THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!:angryfire
    And shame on those who designed a system that doesn't work. C'mon! Surely you don't agree that the existing system is a good one!

    -S
  9. by   humglum
    I agree that the system doesn't work but for a whole different set of reasons -- disparity and the lack of equal access to health care. It's unfortunate the amount of people who do not have access to health care, especially considering that these people are generally impoverished, unhealthy, and members of ethnic groups that are historically prone to chronic and life-threatening conditions (i.e. hypertension, sickle cell, coronary disease, CVAs). They go to the emergency room because they do not have health insurance and cannot afford to pay out of pocket for a doctor's visit. What could have been prevented or possibly managed as a chronic but treatable condition turns into a medical emergency for the under or uninsured.
    I hate to see immigrants blamed for everything. People who come to this country do so because they want a better life for themselves and their families, not to squirrel away what they can steal from the Americans. They do jobs that most of us wouldn't consider doing. They are illegal because most of them HAVE to be or they would never be on American soil.
  10. by   printernurse
    A recent pole of Canadian citizens found that 65 percent of them were happy with their health care. US health insurance have spent a lot of money trying to make Americans believe that things are bad in Canada. Most Canadian's are completely fearful of a US style health care system. I know this because my in-laws are Canadian. I go to Canada several times a year and have had many conversations with them and their friends on this subject. Of course the Canadian health care system has problems. But I can state this unequivocally most Canadian's think that our system is by far the worse system. One very big myth is that Canadian system is a socialized medicine. It is in fact administered by a private insurance company. Something like one third of the cost of our system is the huge expense that hospitals dedicate to dealing with the administrative paper work that is caused by having to deal with a lot of insurance companies. That is an expense that Canadian's do not have. Canadian's make pharmaceutical companies submit bulk bids for medicine and because of this pay far less than we do. The most recent medicaid/medicare bill passed by congress had a provision put in by the pharmaceutical industry to prohibit bulk bids. Interestingly the VA is able to submit bulk bids and because of this has the lowest cost for medicine. The number one reason for bankruptcy in this country is because of medical bills.
  11. by   kalayaan
    people from other countries come here just to seek treatment. healthcare professionals come here to study and get the training they can apply to their home country. how ironic it is that the place people seek for healthcare requires such a premium on its inhabitants. america might be land of the free, but its so called freedom does not include free healthcare. i hate that there are americans that cannot get access to healthcare. the country right above us has free healthcare. i wouldnt be surprised if theyre laughing at us right now.

    and the hospitals and hmos are laughing with them. so tell me again why they dont take care of us nurses...
  12. by   RunningWithScissors
    Interestingly the VA is able to submit bulk bids and because of this has the lowest cost for medicine.
    Thus we see the VA patients use community health resources, and then at discharge hear "I get my meds from the VA".

    There may be people waiting for some elective procedures in countries with "socialized medicine", but MANY people have gone without medical care right here in the USA with NO medical insurance.

    I would gladly work for less $$ if I had no health insurance premiums and wouldn't have to worry about medical expenses.
  13. by   cabkrun
    Quote from printernurse
    A recent pole of Canadian citizens found that 65 percent of them were happy with their health care. US health insurance have spent a lot of money trying to make Americans believe that things are bad in Canada. Most Canadian's are completely fearful of a US style health care system. I know this because my in-laws are Canadian. I go to Canada several times a year and have had many conversations with them and their friends on this subject. Of course the Canadian health care system has problems. But I can state this unequivocally most Canadian's think that our system is by far the worse system. One very big myth is that Canadian system is a socialized medicine. It is in fact administered by a private insurance company. Something like one third of the cost of our system is the huge expense that hospitals dedicate to dealing with the administrative paper work that is caused by having to deal with a lot of insurance companies. That is an expense that Canadian's do not have. Canadian's make pharmaceutical companies submit bulk bids for medicine and because of this pay far less than we do. The most recent medicaid/medicare bill passed by congress had a provision put in by the pharmaceutical industry to prohibit bulk bids. Interestingly the VA is able to submit bulk bids and because of this has the lowest cost for medicine. The number one reason for bankruptcy in this country is because of medical bills.

    I agree with a lot of this. Like I mentioned, my husbands father has heart disease, and he isn't running over here for treatment. In fact, there was an article in the NYT yesterday about the difference between US and European Health care. We spend quite a bit more per person on health care, with worse outcomes. It's because of many of the things you mention above, and also because Americans feel entitled to many unnecessary procedures (and doctors permit them for fear of being sued).
    I'm not saying any "system" is perfect, but I disagree that hordes of Europeans and Canadians are running over here to get health care. Actually, some of the opposite is happening...Americans going overseas because some operations are less expensive, and it is the only way for them to afford it.

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