"Men should be EMT's or Doctors!" - page 4

So our floor had this little old lady who was basically your general pain in the keester. Declined meds, treatments, tests...and was needy as all get go but no one could satisfy her. Very bold... Read More

  1. by   nursemike
    On the topic of respect, I would modestly propose that we are all born with a right to be respected, but some of us forfeit that right through our conduct.

    Even so, I think Triage handled the situation as well as it could be.

    An old saying I grew up with is "Don't get in a p***ing contest with a skunk."
  2. by   Antikigirl
    Quote from nursemike
    An old saying I grew up with is "Don't get in a p***ing contest with a skunk."
    Sorry but I love that phrase! LOL!!!!!!!! Never heard it before!

    I didn't mean for this to be a respect an elder vs not. I actually respected the lady for her life and her spirit, but didn't respect her social attributes at this time. However, I can see how she may not be at her best being in a hospital and not having control. That is why we have nursing Dx of powerlessness, hopelessness. For some people even the tiniest loss in that triggers an over reaction of coping mechs to gain control again.

    Lets take a look here, the lady fell...broke her hip. What do most of our patients feel about that when they are in their 70's-90's...they think it is basically the end of life as they know it. They know they will need to go to a home and loose their rights of liberty to do as they please, and some basically give up. I can see that with this woman.

    However, there is a point where compassion and understanding must lend itself to helping the patient. This patient was not helping herself by refusing care, and refusing care from certain people no matter what her excuses or thoughts were. When she goes to a home facility, they are not as staffed as to allow for a switch in care as a hospital may be...she will need to accept care, accept help from people...this is going to be her next hurdle in life. That or she really needs to change her status to DNR (she refused all care in our hospital...no tests, no meds...).

    I fear that her independance is going to hurt her in more ways that imagained. It is going to make her last years miserable..and she doesn't deserve that in my book. She just needs to take a step back and overcome the anger and denial of the situation and see it in a realistic fashion, if not be proactive about it (and reasonably proactive).

    I respect my elders, but at times I see the parts of the healthcare system that can bump horns with people being bull headed. I try to help them avoid that so they can lead happy lives like they deserve and not make it miserable via unwillingness or denial to change when their bodies do.

    And as far as folks that either let elderly do whatever they want, vs people that get angry at it...that is why I love my career, different strokes for different folks and not one patient is the same. Somedays you get to be the 'good cop' and others 'the bad cop' scenero...and through working together...it usually pans out just fine . She needed a bad cop first (which wound up being a EKG tech)..then a good cop in order to listen and think (yeah I got to be the good cop for once! LOL!).
  3. by   Multicollinearity
    I guess if someone's behavior is bizarre or disrespectful, I'd rather concentrate on the 'why' of the matter than respond in a knee-jerk ego fashion. I also wouldn't automatically lose respect for the person. My comment "but by the grace of G-d" was referring to the fact that any of us put in extreme situations or stress with illness could act in ways we could never imagine or fathom.

    Once when I was in the hospital, years ago, I acted in a manner that I still cringe at to remember. I was admitted for pain control following a surgery that I found traumatic for personal reasons. I'm sure it looked routine to my nurse. Anyway, I wasn't coping and I was disinhibited by the narcotics. So I said some abusive things and I was inappropriate. Extremely out of character for me. If I hadn't had this personal experience I probably wouldn't have such a permissive attitude. I just know that I wasn't operating very highly on Maslow's hierarchy during that hospital stay and it pushed me to say things I find shocking.

    I wish my nurse would have responded with an autonomous view. I wish she would have questioned "why is this patient doing this? Does she need a psychologist to assess her, or a social worker to talk about coping skills? What is really going on?" Instead my nurse got angry with me (in a veiled manner) and made it clear that I was being discharged and not a minute too soon. I needed help and she shamed me.

    Since I'm only a student I'll leave it at that. I'm mindful that my views may change after I graduate. Or not. I'm mindful that it's easier to talk about these things in an academic way rather than actually doing them. I'll probably be more permissive of behavioral problems with patients than some of my co-workers simply because of this personal experience. If that never happened to me, I might be saying the same things as some of you are.
    Last edit by Multicollinearity on Nov 2, '06 : Reason: not directed at the OP, but rather some of the comments about patients always being responsible for their behavior, not respecting those who act disrespectfully,etc
  4. by   ryanfocker
    Quote from teeituptom
    I look at things a little differently

    At 90 years old, she should be allowed to feel what ever way she wants to feel. By God she has earned that right.She has served her time, paid her dues,and who knows what factors she faced while achieving her 90 years.
    This world is big enough for all types, even me




    Let the Democrats regain control, please Lord

    she is certainly "allowed" to feel how ever she wants. however, her "feelings" are biggoted, no matter how long she spent on earth. this is biggotry, plain and simple. replace the word "male" with "jew" or "black"; and it would be clear that this woman is a biggot.
  5. by   ryanfocker
    i feel that when patients consent to care, there should be some sort of clause that excludes from the pt the right to pick caregivers based on race, religion, creed, gender, and age.

    just as a healthcare employee ought not have the right to reject a pt based on those same criteria.

    as a pt, you came to the hospital knowing the staff at the hospital contain the knowledge, ability, and materials to return you to a state of better health.

    pts come to hospitals and sign themselves over to the "experts". certainly, one can reject the care of an incomptent care giver, or a care giver that is dangerous, or a treatment they do not agree is beneficial. but race, religion, creed, age, and gender have to part in these standards.
  6. by   Multicollinearity
    Quote from ryanfocker
    i feel that when patients consent to care, there should be some sort of clause that excludes from the pt the right to pick caregivers based on race, religion, creed, gender, and age.

    just as a healthcare employee ought not have the right to reject a pt based on those same criteria.

    as a pt, you came to the hospital knowing the staff at the hospital contain the knowledge, ability, and materials to return you to a state of better health.

    pts come to hospitals and sign themselves over to the "experts". certainly, one can reject the care of an incomptent care giver, or a care giver that is dangerous, or a treatment they do not agree is beneficial. but race, religion, creed, age, and gender have to part in these standards.
    How would the above apply to Muslim patients who object to the opposite sex providing care?

    Also, why would you want to take care of a patient who objects to having you as a nurse? I am speaking of religious objections and otherwise. Giving in to the patient's objection doesn't validate their unethical/ignorant or religious view. It just says you aren't going to have two uncomfortable people. The patient and the nurse.
    Last edit by Multicollinearity on Nov 2, '06
  7. by   Antikigirl
    I have actually provided for a muslim patient that couldn't have me be his nurse and needed a very complex dressing change post vein harvest x4!

    What I did was to get his wife to assist the patients brother in the sterile dressing technique! I got the brother to take a few lessons from me in sterile technique and what he was doing and why (and he excelled at it!!!! WOW, he was even better and caught on faster than even I did when I was learning it!). Then I stood right inside the door with my back turned to the patient in case he had questions. The wife also was educated and assisted him if he needed something opened or whatever. It worked out great and the patient was very happy that I helped instead of forcing something on him or not doing anything at all!

    I also provided them with a room facing East for their prayers (the patients family..he did a special prayer in bed that was okayed by his religious officiate.

    There are ways to get around these issues and still provide the patient what they need and gain respect for those of us providing the help . Yes it can be a pain in the keester sometimes...but being creative is my favorite, and so far it has paid off wonderfully!
  8. by   Multicollinearity
    Quote from TriageRN_34
    I have actually provided for a muslim patient that couldn't have me be his nurse and needed a very complex dressing change post vein harvest x4!

    What I did was to get his wife to assist the patients brother in the sterile dressing technique! I got the brother to take a few lessons from me in sterile technique and what he was doing and why (and he excelled at it!!!! WOW, he was even better and caught on faster than even I did when I was learning it!). Then I stood right inside the door with my back turned to the patient in case he had questions. The wife also was educated and assisted him if he needed something opened or whatever. It worked out great and the patient was very happy that I helped instead of forcing something on him or not doing anything at all!

    I also provided them with a room facing East for their prayers (the patients family..he did a special prayer in bed that was okayed by his religious officiate.

    There are ways to get around these issues and still provide the patient what they need and gain respect for those of us providing the help . Yes it can be a pain in the keester sometimes...but being creative is my favorite, and so far it has paid off wonderfully!
    You are fantastic!
  9. by   Multicollinearity
    Here's an interesting APA article regarding the ethics of dealing with biggoted patients:

    http://www.apa.udel.edu/apa/archive/...ne/quality.asp
  10. by   azhiker96
    Well done TriageRN_34! You definitely raised the bar in holistic proactive patient care. That patient's refusals were not in her best interest. Simply changing nurses helped in the short term but planting the seed that males could be effective caregivers can help her after she's discharged from your facility. Sure, she may still cling to her beliefs and act based on them. To me, that's just natural selection at work. However you gave her the chance to learn and to continue to grow in her 9th decade.

    I am amazed at the prejudices that have been expressed about the elderly, that they are set in their ways and disagreeable. I've met people of all ages that fit that description and the few folks I've known for 40 years or more have had the same demeanor the whole time. I don't believe that people get bullheaded in their old age. Most of them start off and live that way their whole life.
  11. by   Antikigirl
    AKhiker..thank you so very much! It was a challenge not to tell her how things go and how she should be..I had 6 other patients. but I was darned if I was going to let this patient down...she deserved a bit of understanding and thought about her own actions to help her as she progresses towards changes with her body and..well...inevitable placement into a facility!

    I guess I am lucky that I have seen what happens in facilities for elderly...see the probelms that have to be overcome when someone has to go there..typically against their will. I sympathize, yet am proactive in gaining the tools for the right coping mechs to handle it. I don't believe someone should be taken at face value and dissed..but looking into the problem and helping them to fix it in their own way. God help me because that is the way I feel and hope to GOD someone accepts that of me when it is my turn! Oh I will be soooooooo bad when I get there..I know it! LOL!

    That or society will be all Solient Green when I get old..LOL!!!!!!! Then I don't have to worry! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
  12. by   tvccrn
    Quote from DusktilDawn
    I was also raised with this saying, however I disagree with it.

    If you want to get respect, you have to be respectful.
    That would be considered earning it.

    tvccrn
  13. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from teeituptom
    I look at things a little differently

    At 90 years old, she should be allowed to feel what ever way she wants to feel. By God she has earned that right.She has served her time, paid her dues,and who knows what factors she faced while achieving her 90 years.
    This world is big enough for all types, even me
    There is a difference, Tom.

    It is one thing for a female to reject a male caregiver, because of modesty or emotional discomfort with his gender rendering personal care. That is clearly not a sexist act.

    It is quite another to reject him, by saying that he needs to grow some testes and be an MD/EMT (as though he is not a "real" man, or that "real" men cannot be nurses) ...that is a form of highly inflammatory sexist bias. And then to tell him never to enter the door, because of this.

    And being 90 years old, is not an adequate excuse for being a sexist witch, just as it isn't for being racist. If anything else, she should have learned better by now.

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