Is Mandatory DNP by 2015 a Done Deal? - page 4

I am aware that the AACN has issued a position statement recommending a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) to be necessary to work as a new NP as of 2015. I wonder however, does the AACN have the... Read More

  1. by   Grneyzrn
    I'm a BSN about to start MSN and when I checked with Tn BON they told me that as of now NPs only need to have a masters degree to get certified. So for Tn right now DNP isn't required
  2. by   Ellen NP
    The DNP as it currently exist is not a clinical degree. I doubt very much that insurers will reimburse an NP with a DNP focusing on nursing education at a higher rate than an MSN prepared NP. Are insurers going to start asking for our transcripts to ascertain the focus of doctoral work? I can see that they might reimburse for significantly more formal clinical education but that is not what the DNP is about.
  3. by   Ellen NP
    PA's are not junior MDs. Their education is most definitely not the, "equivalent of a medical school degree (with first year internship) behind them." PA's have a two year program of study.

    I remember the days when the discussion was around how much more rigorous the MSN/NP program was than other masters programs. In fact, nursing leaders described the education as closer to other doctoral programs. It's hard for me to understand why, if our programs are already rigorous, we should be required to add more years of theory and capstone work to earn the DNP. If I want doctoral education for clinicians, I want to see additional clinical education (as opposed to capstone/practice hours). Why should one post-MSN DNP program require 27 semester credit hours while another requires 45+?
    Look at the variation in curricula of different programs.

    There is an assumption by our colleagues in other health professions (and even among nurses) that DNPs are all NPs. What about all the CNOs and educators that haven't been in clinical practice for years? How can someone tell that those DNPs are different than DNP prepared NPs? MDs/DOs are all physicians with the same educational preparation.

    Medical school curricula are all pretty much the same. RN program curricula vary from program to program. Some students have one day/week for a few weeks in a clinical setting and others have 2 days/week for 6 weeks in that setting. Maybe we should standardize basic nursing clinical education before trying to change graduate education.
  4. by   Vidablue
    The difference in doctors and nurse or PA training is that the doctors do those 10,000 hours before graduation, and the nurses and PAs do them on the job, earning about what the medical student does in his/her stipend, though the nurse gets paid by an employer. (Well, actually, the PA who is not a hospitalist will not be gaining those “see it all” hours in primary care; those you see in the acute care environment. But that’s another topic.)
    You are extremely misguided on many aspects in regards to not only a PA education, but also a NP education. First of all, a NP program can take only a total of 5 years from freshman in college to NP to graduate. There are 1 year FNP programs FYI. I.E. - get your ADN, do an online BSN while acquiring the clinical experience, then 1 year of Masters. Not to mention, you can even obtain the FNP degree ONLINE. And a lot of these programs are pushing out highly unqualified NPs, because they only have to go to class 1 day a week and do 2-3 days of clinical a week. Most NPs have no clue what they are doing, and it is no wonder why I see hundreds of them lose their licenses because of unsafe and unethical practice every year. I would be more concerned with the fact that you can get an ADN , BSN, and MSN all online. How in the world does that signify competency? The Nurse Practitioner was originally created to aid in the shortage of doctors in rural areas, and quite frankly, should have remained that way. A NP's education is no where even comparable to a PA's. And no, PA's have a more substantial amount of clinical rotation hours required during their program, and take many of the same classes the first year that med students do their first and second. MD/DO graduates have residencies for a reason, and that is because they are no where near prepared yet, even after 4 years of insane post graduate study and clinic to be considered competent. That is way PA's are already having to go into residency programs after graduation, because the bottom line is, it is THAT important. NPs lack education and clinical hours in school and do not have enough supervised clinical hours after graduation, plan and simple. This is a harsh post, but you have to understand that practicing medicine is serious business and it should REQUIRE an MD or DO ONLY. NPs and PAs both just do not have the knowledge and expertise to be considered anything above a mid-level provider.*Furthermore, being a PCP is not about "seeing it all, know how to treat all". You sound incredibly ignorant. NPs have preceptors that must sign off on EvERYTHING they do just a little FYI, also. They are and never will have absolute autonomy. Not to mention, a PA can also own and operate his/her own clinic just as a NP can. There honestly is no difference, it is just the wording within the guidelines and laws that give you that misconception. And no, I am not a PA.
  5. by   Ellen NP
    You are mistaken about the need for NPs to have preceptors who, "must sign off on EVERYTHING they do." That is entirely dependent on state laws. NPs are autonomous in a number of states. Ideally, NPs maintain collaborative relationships with physicians but that is not mandated in independent practice states.
    You are also misinformed about online education. Online NP programs may have didactic work online, both synchronous and asynchronous learning; however, all clinical work is done in real clinical sites with real preceptors. Any FNP program that can be completed in one year requires that the student have already completed the pre-clinical advanced A&P, pharmacology and physical assessment courses. The one year programs are generally designed for those who are already prepared as NPs or Clinical Specialists in another specialty.
    Online ADN to BSN programs require online coursework but real clinical experience. The actual difference between ADN and BSN education is limited to a nursing research course, community health, and whatever general education credits are required to gain a baccalaureate degree. The only people who can complete an ADN to BSN program in one year are those who already had many credits beyond their ADN preparation.
    I agree with you that neither NP nor PA education compares to MD/DO education and residency. Medical students and residents live medicine for 7-8 years. Those that compare a DNP to MD/DO have no understanding of the rigor of clinical education required of physicians.
  6. by   BlueDevil,DNP
    Almost every single aspect of Vidablue's post is dead wrong. S/he has not idea what they are talking about, in addition to some obvious (misinformed) bias. Take it with a grain of salt.

    Vida, I am a DNP in independent practice and have been from the day I graduated. No one signs off on anything I do, no one reads it, no one checks up on me. I have complete autonomy, and I am an excellent clinician. You are the one appearing ignorant here. Please become more informed before coming to a nursing forum and trying to tell us our business, lol.

    Sincerely, Dr. Devil
  7. by   RED1984
    Vida is a pre-nursing student.... I wonder where she got all this information from??? I read through her post and thought "whaaaaaat?" Then looked at her profile and was like "oh, ok"
    I'm by no means an expert, I'm still in nursing school myself- but her post is full of misinformation.
  8. by   Kuriin
    Erm,'re wrong. PAs need to have their charts signed off by physicians whereas NPs do not. NPs can own a practice but need a MD for on-call. If anything, NPs are more autonomous compared to PAs.
  9. by   Ellen NP
    NPs in Maine don't even need an on call physician although I think it's wise to have collaborative relationships with multiple providers.
  10. by   applesxoranges
    Does anyone have more information regarding the original topic of DNP by 2015? I can't find anything on my board. I think it's like the BSN in 10 where it is recommended.
  11. by   manusko
    Quote from applesxoranges
    Does anyone have more information regarding the original topic of DNP by 2015? I can't find anything on my board. I think it's like the BSN in 10 where it is recommended.
    Not mandated. CRNA entry practice is mandated for 2025. NP are not yet unless something changed very recently.
  12. by   cruisin_woodward
    I graduated with my DNP on Saturday Yay! I was in the first cohort of BSN-DNP students in my school, and I think in the metropolitan Detroit area (although I could be wrong, so I shouldn't even say it). From what I have seen in my area, at least in Acute Care, schools are starting to phase out the MSN programs. I know U of M, and WSU have phased out the MSN programs for acute care. The primary care programs have not, that I'm aware of. These are two big acute care programs in the area. I chose to get my DNP. It wasn't mandated. I thought for sure that the change would discourage nurses from going into the ANCP programs there. SO far, enrollment has been steady. I am not sure if the proposed change will be mandated by 2015 or not, but I'm not sure why it wouldn't be (although 2015 may not be a realistic year). Many other advanced degrees have already mandated doctorates, or are heading toward that direction. We still have ADN programs for entry level into nursing, however, I have seen quite a shift in the area, of hospitals requiring BSNs for new grads. I also know that one of the biggest ADN programs in the area is trying to switch to a BSN program, even though they are a community (Jr) college that typically only offers associate degrees.
  13. by   sirI
    Quote from manusko
    Not mandated. CRNA entry practice is mandated for 2025. NP are not yet unless something changed very recently.
    This is correct.

    As for 2015 for the NP, that is still not mandatory. Only CRNA's accept the DNP and that will be in 2025.