Not trying to stir up bad ideas, but...... - page 6

Trying to stay away from the SDN is like the forbidden fruit. And I know i am stupid for even caring....but i do. My program starts is 2 months...I have worked for years to get to this point and for... Read More

  1. by   subee
    Quote from paindoc
    My points are:
    1. There are no fellowship programs for CRNAs in pain management. There are some courses available, but these are not fellowships. Fellowships are sanctioned by an accreditation agency or board....CRNAs have none availble in pain management.
    2. A BSRN does not take 4 years of classes in nursing. General education classes do not count and constitute approximately half the curriculum in most schools. Typically a BSRN has 2 years of training in nursing. That is quite sufficient.
    3. Working in an ICU may be a prerequisite for CRNA school just as having some experience in a hospital or medical field is a prerequisite for going into medicine. However, I would not consider time working as an orderly, cardiac monitoring tech, or nuclear technician as being part of formal medical education or training unless it came specifically with a certificate sanctioned by a medical school or accreditation body. Working as an ICU nurse may be part of education, but it is certainly not a formal part of CRNA training, otherwise it would simply be included in the CRNA curriculum. Part of what one learns when working in a job is valid, but much of it is not unless the job has formalized requirements for education such as residency programs in medicine. There are absolutely requirements that must be met by each medical resident or surgical resident or anesthesiology resident that are formal, and adopted by the ACGME. There are also formal requirements for a fellowship program in pain.
    4. My point regarding scope of practice is that CRNAs are great at what they do, but should not feel they have to resort to hyperbole regarding their CRNA education (7 years???? BS!!!!) Using those yardsticks for education, MDs would have 13-15 years of "training" and if they happened to work at the local nursing home all throughout high school, they would have even more. So my suggestion if CRNAs wish to be taken seriously would be to can the grotesque hyperbole regarding the many years of training they have, drop the inferiority complex, stop trying to compare yourselves to other nurses demeaning them for their perceived inferior education compared to yours, and be what you are....damned good practitioners of anesthesia. That is something of which to be extremely proud.
    Admission for master's in CRNA requires a BACHELOR'S DEGREE In NURSING. No, you cannot apply for school without that four years. Not the point that only two years or so of those classes are in nursing because you are completing a lot of pre-req's the first two years. Then you have to have AT LEAST one year of ICU experience. Then you go for 24-36 months for master's. How does that not up to at least 7 years? No, experience as ICU nurse does not count as credit. It is required so that they don't have to teach you how to read a 12 lead EKG or what the numbers mean. It is required that you have already acquired these skills so they don't have to waste their time teaching them to you. You can duke it out with someone else re: pain "fellowships". I haven't found any. Oh yes, we don't say it takes seven years at least to become CRNA because we feel inferior, its because its a simple answer to a simple question.
  2. by   traumaRUs
    Informal education occurs at many levels and I think that once you stop learning, you stop being. I would venture a guess that we all learn something new each day and if we don't, we stagnate.
  3. by   paindoc
    The statement "It requires at least 7 years to become a CRNA" is completely true. What is not true is an attempt to mislead the public by saying CRNAs have 7 years education as a CRNA. CRNAs have 4 years total education as a CRNA, 2 extra years taking non-nursing courses, and a year's work requirement thrown in. MDs do not say it takes 14 years to become a doctor: it takes 4 plus an additional 4-5 specific training in residency.

    But suit yourself...if it floats your boat to say you have 20 years education to become a CRNA (Kindergarden + 12 years primary and secondary school + 4 years undergrad + one year of work + 2 years CRNA school) then great!!! Or if you get continuous nursing education credit each year and have been out of CRNA school for 10 years, then you now are up to 30 years education to be a CRNA.
  4. by   KannRN
    Quote from paindoc
    The statement "It requires at least 7 years to become a CRNA" is completely true. What is not true is an attempt to mislead the public by saying CRNAs have 7 years education as a CRNA. CRNAs have 4 years total education as a CRNA, 2 extra years taking non-nursing courses, and a year's work requirement thrown in. MDs do not say it takes 14 years to become a doctor: it takes 4 plus an additional 4-5 specific training in residency.

    But suit yourself...if it floats your boat to say you have 20 years education to become a CRNA (Kindergarden + 12 years primary and secondary school + 4 years undergrad + one year of work + 2 years CRNA school) then great!!! Or if you get continuous nursing education credit each year and have been out of CRNA school for 10 years, then you now are up to 30 years education to be a CRNA.
    I've been following this thread for as long as it has been going. Please, Paindoc, tell us more about yourself, your professional background, education and what exactly is your title? Your responses have certainly raised a lot of hair around here and I for one am very interested in knowing what your background is to be so self assured and direct about CRNA practice and education.
  5. by   versatile_kat
    Quote from paindoc
    But suit yourself...if it floats your boat to say you have 20 years education to become a CRNA (Kindergarden + 12 years primary and secondary school + 4 years undergrad + one year of work + 2 years CRNA school) then great!!! Or if you get continuous nursing education credit each year and have been out of CRNA school for 10 years, then you now are up to 30 years education to be a CRNA.
    That's pretty funny ...
  6. by   paindoc
    I am what my moniker says. 20 years experience in anesthesiology/pain medicine....not impressed by how many degrees a person has nor how many letters they can cram after their names even though if I listed all my credentials they would fill an entire line. What is important is that CRNAs are in an excellent profession and should be proud of "CRNA". There is no need to compare yourselves to MDs via education, years of training, or job attributes. You chose to be a nurse for a reason and for most, it was not because you could not have become a doctor- it was because you did not want to do so. So that is the reason for my diatribe against exaggeration of credentials/training....there is no need for that.
  7. by   traumaRUs
    You should always be proud of your credentials, but not necessarily so proud that you don't know when you are out of your league. Although not a CRNA, I am an APN (CNS) and feel that I can contribute a lot to patient care. However, do I feel I should do a CABG? Nope...however, I have the tools to refer my patients to the appropriate medical professional (be that an MD or another APN). The end result is not what we can do, but rather knowing what we should be doing.
  8. by   KannRN
    Quote from paindoc
    I am what my moniker says. 20 years experience in anesthesiology/pain medicine....not impressed by how many degrees a person has nor how many letters they can cram after their names even though if I listed all my credentials they would fill an entire line. What is important is that CRNAs are in an excellent profession and should be proud of "CRNA". There is no need to compare yourselves to MDs via education, years of training, or job attributes. You chose to be a nurse for a reason and for most, it was not because you could not have become a doctor- it was because you did not want to do so. So that is the reason for my diatribe against exaggeration of credentials/training....there is no need for that.
    yes, yes, yes, paindoc. Nurse anesthesia is an excellent profession as the practice of Medicine is. There is actually nothing wrong with comparing any profession side by side as it would show one the similarities and differences and perhaps provide direction for someone in pursuit of---but undecided on which route to take.
    But You didnt answer my question about your own credentials and background and education! Dont you think that "20 years experience in anesthesiology/pain management" is vague? Or even evasive?
  9. by   subee
    Quote from paindoc
    The statement "It requires at least 7 years to become a CRNA" is completely true. What is not true is an attempt to mislead the public by saying CRNAs have 7 years education as a CRNA. CRNAs have 4 years total education as a CRNA, 2 extra years taking non-nursing courses, and a year's work requirement thrown in. MDs do not say it takes 14 years to become a doctor: it takes 4 plus an additional 4-5 specific training in residency.

    But suit yourself...if it floats your boat to say you have 20 years education to become a CRNA (Kindergarden + 12 years primary and secondary school + 4 years undergrad + one year of work + 2 years CRNA school) then great!!! Or if you get continuous nursing education credit each year and have been out of CRNA school for 10 years, then you now are up to 30 years education to be a CRNA.

    Pray tell, what medical school will accept you as a high school grad? If a patient asks me how long it takes to become an anesthesiologist, I tell them about 11 years. Its just a SIMPLE question, I applied to med school and the application asked for ALL my undergrad courses. I had about 210 credits (before CRNA school) and it took forever to complete. So don't tell me that the years in undergrad. didn't count since some of them were pre-reqs. specifically for med. school. I just decided that I didn't want to be a 40 year old intern deeply in debt and physics and organic didn't count for nothing! The only other programs that required the p. and o. were dentistry and nurse anesthesia and I had flat feet so dentistry would never do. That was in the 80's at an Ivy League school - only applied to one place so I don't know what requirements were in other schools.
  10. by   jwk
    Quote from subee
    Pray tell, what medical school will accept you as a high school grad?
    Actually, there are at least a couple that are 6yr BS/MD programs that take students straight out of high school.
  11. by   deepz
    Quote from jwk
    Actually, there are at least a couple that are 6yr BS/MD programs that take students straight out of high school.
    Of course, as many PhDs say, an MD isn't truly a 'real' doctorate degree...............


    !
  12. by   paindoc
    Correcto! I used to teach at one of those colleges that accepted the brightest, albeit some of the geekiest, people from high school into the MD program.
    As for my credentials....permit me to be frank. None of your damned business.
  13. by   KannRN
    Quote from paindoc
    Correcto! I used to teach at one of those colleges that accepted the brightest, albeit some of the geekiest, people from high school into the MD program.
    As for my credentials....permit me to be frank. None of your damned business.
    No problem here paindoc. Your attitutide speaks volumes and your persistant evasiveness suggests the possiblity that you lack credentials, and that you just might be well versed on different aspects of the health care field. Anyone determined enough can obtain any information they want and become self-schooled. On the other hand, people who have spent years obtaining whatever degree and certifications they have are generally honest, sometimes humble, but able to state their background---without the defensive attitude.

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