Before the Morning (Failed CRNE three times. what now?) - page 11
I just received a bad news. My nursing career is over. Yes, I am no longer one of you, but I feel a need to share my story. I have failed the CRNE for the third time and honestly, I don't know what... Read More
7Jun 2, '11 by NotReady4PrimeTime, RN Senior ModeratorThe issue is the suggestion that practical nurses are being equated with failure to be something "greater", such as an RN. When one has been educated as a future RN but is unable to pass the exam after 3 tries, the default result has always been either re-education or a change of career. It's a very recent occurrence that people have been given the opportunity to then magically turn themselves into PNs, and as far as I know, only in Ontario. It's definitely a slap in the face to those who have chosen to become PNs and it shouldn't be permitted.
5Jun 2, '11 by joanna73 GuideHow many times do you need to write an exam? If you've failed three times, that's enough. Maybe you shouldn't be a nurse. Furthermore, the LPNs are not permitted to write the CRNE, so why should the reverse be applicable? That isn't fair.
Whether people feel it's arbitrary or not, somehow the CNA needs a tool to measure your competencies. And saying that because you finished the program, that is indicative enough, well...no. Many of the people who are borderline all through school maybe shouldn't practice. The exam is not that terrible. If you can't succeed after 3 chances, something IS wrong, and it isn't with the CNO or the CNA.
6Jun 2, '11 by Fiona59I've got to chime in here.
As an LPN, I've listened to some of the most asinine comments from new grad RNs.
They are better educated than me, OK, in nursing theory and knowledge yes. Educationally? Beg to differ. Have a degree in another area, as do many of my fellow LPNs.
They know more about patient care than I do. Uhm, three months on the floor versus a decade in acute care.
They can critically think, LPNs can't because they aren't taught how to in their programme. This one is really insulting. Human beings critically think in every aspect of their life and in their decisions. Every LPN I know follows the thread in patient care and when the knot arises they try and figure it out and then ask for assistance as required. Many new RNs will let their patient go sour before admitting they are in over their heads.
One of the qualifiers to write CPNRE was graduation from an approved Practical Nursing course of education. It seems as if CNO has decided otherwise. Maybe they are trying out the 2020 plan that CNA wants. Who knows? But CNO is doing a huge dis-service to their PN members by not informing them of what their rationale is for this step.
Oh, and in my hospital, we've had IENs fail CNRE x3 and then go on to fail CPNRE x3 and yes those nurses had degrees and by the SIXTH failure had been working in Canada for two years. If you can't pass basic exams you really shouldn't be allowed near a patient.
Remember that old adage? Give a multiple choice exam to a chimp and they can score 25%. Maybe the CRNE should be given to a chimp to see what the pass rate is.
1Jun 3, '11 by Dela RNFiona59 I respect where you are coming from and understand the frustration of having someone new come into your work environment with little experience and thinking that they are better than you. Although I disagree that this only applies to new grad RNs because I'm sure it has to be some new grads in general, whether RN or LPN.
For the most part, I completely agree with you. No amount of school will ever prepare new graduates for work like years of practical working experience. Isn't that correct for all fields of work?
I think the most important thing that you made me realize is that the lines between RNs and LPNs are quite blurred. Is there that big of a difference between LPNs and RNs besides little things they can and cannot do? As an LPN, what do you think the differences are between RNs and LPNs? The reason I ask is because you've already mentioned some of the things they teach in nursing school about the differences ie. critical thinking and I agree with you, an LPN with years of experience will have more critical thinking skills than a new graduate... So besides theory, what is the big difference between the two? (I know this gets asked a lot because it seems like such a grey area at times)
I know on the unit I work on you can't tell an LPN from and RN and vice versa. LPNs can do basically as much as RNs minus a few little things like giving meds IV push. But besides those little differences, we get the same patient load and the same patient population.Last edit by Dela RN on Jun 3, '11 : Reason: typo
6Jun 3, '11 by OgopogoLPNQuote from Dela RNIn the spirit of discussion, why is it so bad to allow those who fail the CRNE to take the CPNRE?
Do those who fail the CRNE 3 times usually pass the CPNRE?
Because becoming an LPN shouldn't be a consolation prize for not achieving RN status.
2Jun 3, '11 by joanna73 GuideMaybe some LPNs should consider drafting a letter to the CNO outlining your thoughts. It might make someone in charge realize what a stupid insulting idea that is. Not to mention, as an employer, would you want to hire someone who failed a licensing exam 3, 4, 5 times? I can't imagine that would look promising.
1Jun 4, '11 by Life03Wow!! thats all i can really say after reading all the comments posted on here. First off you have 5 years to take the CRNE after graduation, therefore if your not ready DO NOT TAKE THE EXAM!! (Espicially when this is your last chance) The CNO has a standard that all nurses must abide to. The CNA specifically tells you which competencies you need to meet in order to practice.
Yes the exam is very difficult, I personally believe some of the nursing programs in ontario do not fully prepare you to write the exam. But I believe after your 2nd time you have a good idea on what to study and what are your weaknesses. Everyone has a different reasons on why they failed and so forth, I have couple of friends who failed as well (3rd time), and they all said they studied and put a lot of effort.
I am not in your place to comment but all I would like to say is keeping working hard if the RPN exam is your next best choice then take that exam fulfill your dream of working as a nurse. I do not agree with individuals saying the RPN exam shouldn't be available to those who failed the CRNE. I do not see this as a insult to the current RPN profession. I personally think they allow the CRNE writers to take the RPN because the RN is a four year program which covers the main content of the RPN program.
I also believe its easy to say things when you have the license. To those who failed I feel for you, do not give up on your dream, if you have the option to appeal then appeal, if you can take the the RPN exam then do that, do not give up.
As far as the 3 chances well thats the standard which you have to abide by, and most professions actually only get 3 chances to make it. Good luck to you guys and I hope your dreams of becoming a nurse come true.
1Jun 4, '11 by Life03Also would like to say it doesn't matter if you fail the first time or second time or 3rd time, it also doesn't matter if you fail by one mark or 10 marks. you have to make in those 3 chances if you get a 4th chance then good for you but realize that your priveleged for that 4th chance and do not waste it.
I don't think employers would really care how many times you failed the exam as long as you have a license. thats my opinion, not all nurses out there who passed are 100% competent to even begin practice. But bottom line you need to pass the exam in order to practice and for now nothing will change that.
0Jun 5, '11 by tahitianmoonI also believe that it is not an insult to LPN's to have a BScN student write the LPN exam. Last I recall the BScN program covers the LPN content plus a lot more. It is a very difficult program to get into and to finish, so anyone finishing the 4 year degree is very qualified in my opinion. A student of the 4 year program also has double the debt and took a longer route to being a nurse, thus they should get their chance to work in the field even if through the LPN.
8Jun 5, '11 by joanna73 GuideJust because someone has debt and finished a 4 year program, this should not entitle them to write the LPN exam. Those people in essence are being afforded special treatment which isn't fair to LPNs or the RNs who passed their exam within the three chances. We can agree to disagree, but it amazes me how some people are reasoning this issue. If that's the case, why can't experienced LPNs write the CRNE then? Maybe everyone who fails the exams should be allowed to keep writing until they pass.
10Jun 5, '11 by CanadianGirl79Quote from tahitianmoonOk, your reply is insulting. "they should get their chance to work in the field even if through the LPN"....see, that's why we PNs hate...RNs who seem to think being a PN is being less of a nurse then an RN. We are EQUALS. RNs are in no way superior to PNs. The RN program is longer, yes. But that does not mean RNs have more nursing skills. RNs and PNs can do all of the same controlled acts. The difference is not in skills taught, it's in theory. RNs learn nursing theory, and PNs, for the most part, do not. THAT is the big difference.I also believe that it is not an insult to LPN's to have a BScN student write the LPN exam. Last I recall the BScN program covers the LPN content plus a lot more. It is a very difficult program to get into and to finish, so anyone finishing the 4 year degree is very qualified in my opinion. A student of the 4 year program also has double the debt and took a longer route to being a nurse, thus they should get their chance to work in the field even if through the LPN.
A lot of would-be RNs who fail seem to think being a PN is not "as good" as being an RN. Like they are settling for being a PN because they couldn't pass the RN exam. That is not ok, and that attitude is very insulting to those of us who chose to become PNs rather then RNs.
Also, finishing a 4 year degree doesn't mean someone is qualified to be a nurse. Lots of nursing students cheat, or squeak thier way by with a C or D average. That doesn't mean they automatically have enough knowledge to be a successful nurse. A C or D average doesn't mean they won't be good nurses either, but chances are if someone goes through their whole program and gets lower marks, they will likely have a harder time passing their exam. And if someone cheats their way through, they really don't deserve to write the exam.
If someone can't pass the CRNE after 3 tries, then it is insulting to say they can still be successful PNs....don't you see that's like saying PNs aren't as smart as RNs, and like being a PN is something to settle for if one cannot pass the CRNE.
Someone, who after finishing a 4 year program, cannot pass a very basic nursing exam in 3 tries needs more education, or to choose a new career. They do not deserve to write the PN exam.
4Jun 5, '11 by Fiona59It seems as if the failed BScNs feel as if it is their right to suddenly "decide" to become LPNs. They chose to do the four year degree and knew there was a national exam at the end of it. They chose to incur the debt for four or more years at university.
Now they are "choosing" to become LPNs. No.
The PNs of Ontario need to find out why CNO is even permitting them to write CPNRE. There is no nursing shortage, so they can't use that old chestnut.
We went through this mess in Alberta when the now defunct Capital Health recruited in the Phillipines and found out that their expensive, imported RNs failed to meet CARNA's educational guidelines. The local LPNs were very vocal in their concerns as were unit managers when these nurse were permitted to work as LPNs until their educational gaps were filled. Judging by this logic, any LPN who took the same required courses should have been permitted to attempt CRNE but were denied this opportunity based on their educational differences. Thankfully, this is no longer an option for IENs in Alberta. It caused too many issues in the hospitals. Locally educated LPNs were better prepared skills and in many cases knowledge wise than the overseas RNs.